High Signal Podcasts Evidence ledger
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Public evidence record

Shawn Wang

Host · Latent Space

Claims
500
Episodes
64
Shows
1
Named items
20

Books, apps, and tools

The evidenced stack.

Browse the grouped index →

app / likes

Spark

“Um, the only thing I like out of, out of Codex is the, is like Spark and like yeah.”

Latent Space · 23 Apr 2026

Evidence receipt · Source ↗

app / uses

Bank of America

“Yeah. I got, I got the tool. Uh, what, like, I hate, I use Bank of America. I hate bank, I hate the app. Mm-hmm. I hate the web. All banking websites just horrible.”

Latent Space · 20 Mar 2026

Evidence receipt · Source ↗

other / likes

Wiki approach

“I like the, the Wiki approach. Uh, my, I’m actually like, uh, you know, obviously I spent some my time at cognition, which, uh, you, you know very well.”

Latent Space · 5 Mar 2026

Evidence receipt · Source ↗

person / uses

Ted Chiang

“You were very excited because I read Ted Chiang over the holidays and I was very inspired by this short story called Understand, which apparently is, like, pretty old.”

Latent Space · 6 Feb 2026

Evidence receipt · Source ↗

app / uses

Overcast

“I used to use Overcast. So it would just link to the Overcast page.”

Latent Space · 14 Mar 2025

Evidence receipt · Source ↗

other / uses

Snip

“By the way, we use the snip count as a proxy for popularity, right? Because we have download counts, but for example, platforms like Spotify re-host our MP3 file.”

Latent Space · 14 Mar 2025

Evidence receipt · Source ↗

other / recommends

The Peel

“I think I strongly recommend Jack Bridger's Scaling DevTools, as well as Turner Novak's The Peel.”

Latent Space · 28 Feb 2025

Evidence receipt · Source ↗

other / recommends

Scaling DevTools

“I think I strongly recommend Jack Bridger's Scaling DevTools, as well as Turner Novak's The Peel.”

Latent Space · 28 Feb 2025

Evidence receipt · Source ↗

app / uses

AI News

“So that's what basically I use AI News for. I have a lot of prompts and a lot of steps and a lot of criteria and O1 just kind of checks through each kind of systematically.”

Latent Space · 1 Feb 2025

Evidence receipt · Source ↗

tool / built

Bolt.new

“It's funny because I built on top of the fork of Bolt.new that already has the multi LLM thing.”

Latent Space · 2 Dec 2024

Evidence receipt · Source ↗

other / uses

XML

“I use XML in other models as well, and it's just a really nice way to make sure that the thing that ends is tied to the thing that starts. That's the only way to do code fences where you're pretty sure example one start, example one end, that is one cohesive unit.”

Latent Space · 28 Nov 2024

Evidence receipt · Source ↗

app / uses

DevIn

“I used to tell people go to the DevIn demo and look at the four things that they offer and say each of those things is a startup.”

Latent Space · 2 Aug 2024

Evidence receipt · Source ↗

Claim ledger

What Shawn said.

222 transcript-backed records

02 / belief

Specifically on the hardware-software boundary part, it’s, it’s something I think about of our education system, in the States, but also maybe just in generally.

“Specifically on the hardware-software boundary part, it’s, it’s something I think about of our education system, in the States, but also maybe just in generally.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

05 / belief

I, I think there’s just a kind of different stages when, when you talk about the world, one wanting more model companies, I talked think about like the neo labs.

“I, I think there’s just a kind of different stages when, when you talk about the world, one wanting more model companies, I talked think about like the neo labs.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

06 / belief

To, to the end customers and like, well, if they didn’t have you, they would’ve to hire in house and they’re not gonna hire in house so they have you. And like, I think that’s like a reasonable, like very robust to any whatever trends and, and discoveries that people make in, in the engineering layer.

“To, to the end customers and like, well, if they didn’t have you, they would’ve to hire in house and they’re not gonna hire in house so they have you. And like, I think that’s like a reasonable, like very robust to any whatever trends and, and discoveries that people make in, in the engineering layer.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

08 / belief

Comparatively, like, I think you should make, Hey, I guess while, while that’s going on, it’s not that bad to be a capabilities explorer on just the $200 a month plan from Cloud Code or from OpenAI.

“Comparatively, like, I think you should make, Hey, I guess while, while that’s going on, it’s not that bad to be a capabilities explorer on just the $200 a month plan from Cloud Code or from OpenAI.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

09 / belief

Um, and obviously I’m involved in cognition and also cursors doing, doing, uh, a lot of own model training. And I think that that is some part of the, what I’ve been calling the agent lab playbook, where you start off with the state of the art models from, uh, from the big labs and you, uh, specialize for your domain.

“Um, and obviously I’m involved in cognition and also cursors doing, doing, uh, a lot of own model training. And I think that that is some part of the, what I’ve been calling the agent lab playbook, where you start off with the state of the art models from, uh, from the big labs and you, uh, specialize for your domain.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

10 / belief

I think that, um, for it to, for the market structure to, to significantly change there would be, there needs to be significant change in like the economics or like the, the brand building or like the, the, the, the value propositions of the, of the companies involved and I.

“I think that, um, for it to, for the market structure to, to significantly change there would be, there needs to be significant change in like the economics or like the, the brand building or like the, the, the, the value propositions of the, of the companies involved and I.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

11 / belief

Of Braintrust where he, and he, I mean, you know, he has a good cross section of all the top AI companies and he says market share of open source is 5% and going down. Um, I think that’s changed.

“Of Braintrust where he, and he, I mean, you know, he has a good cross section of all the top AI companies and he says market share of open source is 5% and going down. Um, I think that’s changed.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

12 / belief

Everyone says like, yeah, we should always, always do this. And honestly like, I think the infrastructure for that is becoming easier with, um, like thinking machines tinker thing as well as primary like, uh, lab stuff.

“Everyone says like, yeah, we should always, always do this. And honestly like, I think the infrastructure for that is becoming easier with, um, like thinking machines tinker thing as well as primary like, uh, lab stuff.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

15 / belief

Cool. Um, I think that that was all the questions I had. I said I, I have one sort of a bonus thing if you, if you wanna indulge in, uh, some Bing history.

“Cool. Um, I think that that was all the questions I had. I said I, I have one sort of a bonus thing if you, if you wanna indulge in, uh, some Bing history.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

17 / belief

I think I can, I can screen share, and then we can kind of go through some of the shocking stats that maybe, maybe put some numbers to what exactly is going on.

“I think I can, I can screen share, and then we can kind of go through some of the shocking stats that maybe, maybe put some numbers to what exactly is going on.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

18 / belief

I’m familiar with these people for the LLM, you know, autoregressive stack. But the other interesting category of these optimizers is also the diffusion people, whereas like Fel and, you know, uh, Pruna recently has come up a lot as well, which I think is like really underappreciated, uh, at least by myself, because I, I thought, oh, all the workload would be LLMs, but actually there’s a lot of diffusion as well.

“I’m familiar with these people for the LLM, you know, autoregressive stack. But the other interesting category of these optimizers is also the diffusion people, whereas like Fel and, you know, uh, Pruna recently has come up a lot as well, which I think is like really underappreciated, uh, at least by myself, because I, I thought, oh, all the workload would be LLMs, but actually there’s a lot of diffusion as well.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

19 / belief

I think like the only argument I have against this is basically scale testing, which obviously the larger pieces of software like Linux, MySQL, he calls up even the Datadog and Temporals and then maybe security testing where Yes.

“I think like the only argument I have against this is basically scale testing, which obviously the larger pieces of software like Linux, MySQL, he calls up even the Datadog and Temporals and then maybe security testing where Yes.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

20 / belief

All the coding review agent, it can merge autonomously. I think that’s something that a lot of people aren’t comfortable with.

“All the coding review agent, it can merge autonomously. I think that’s something that a lot of people aren’t comfortable with.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

21 / belief

I had to go do a crash course in Beam and Elixir, and I think most people are not operating at that scale of concurrency where you need that.

“I had to go do a crash course in Beam and Elixir, and I think most people are not operating at that scale of concurrency where you need that.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

23 / belief

I think obviously you can spend the whole day going through some of these, but I do think that some of these have a lot of care or some of this you might wanna tell people, Hey, take this, but, make it your own.

“I think obviously you can spend the whole day going through some of these, but I do think that some of these have a lot of care or some of this you might wanna tell people, Hey, take this, but, make it your own.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

24 / belief

Coming back to the final point I wanted to make is, yeah I think that there, there are multiple other, like you guys are working on this, but this is a pattern that every other company out there should adopt.

“Coming back to the final point I wanted to make is, yeah I think that there, there are multiple other, like you guys are working on this, but this is a pattern that every other company out there should adopt.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

26 / belief

I think one of the concerns I have with that kind of stuff is you think you’re making the right call by making, it’s persisted for all time across everything.

“I think one of the concerns I have with that kind of stuff is you think you’re making the right call by making, it’s persisted for all time across everything.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

28 / belief

I think Sun is also too polite to point out that, both like Google’s genie, demos as well as world Labs is marble, do not have interactive worlds.

“I think Sun is also too polite to point out that, both like Google’s genie, demos as well as world Labs is marble, do not have interactive worlds.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

30 / belief

I honestly, do think that if people deeply understand everything we just covered, they will see what’s coming. I think you guys have, made some, a really significant contribution here.

“I honestly, do think that if people deeply understand everything we just covered, they will see what’s coming. I think you guys have, made some, a really significant contribution here.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

31 / belief

I remember, I don’t think it was January, right? It was like new reps it was, it dropped during new reps and everyone in Europes was December of 25th, I think.

“I remember, I don’t think it was January, right? It was like new reps it was, it dropped during new reps and everyone in Europes was December of 25th, I think.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

35 / belief

I think you guys do something different in planning, but, uh, I’ve been talking with Tariq who is on the cloud co team, and you guys are, he’s like, no, we just exposed planning.

“I think you guys do something different in planning, but, uh, I’ve been talking with Tariq who is on the cloud co team, and you guys are, he’s like, no, we just exposed planning.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

36 / belief

I, I think you still want, especially for people who are doing like high performance software or like very complex software, uh, you still want like, some view of the architecture.

“I, I think you still want, especially for people who are doing like high performance software or like very complex software, uh, you still want like, some view of the architecture.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

37 / belief

Uh, you know, look, my, my my, my view is like most things should be Tori by default, unless you really need the full power of electron, but.

“Uh, you know, look, my, my my, my view is like most things should be Tori by default, unless you really need the full power of electron, but.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

47 / belief

Like, so like that, that, that chart that you see is them estimating what the human equivalent replacement is. Um, I think the, I think actually Enro release a more recent chart.

“Like, so like that, that, that chart that you see is them estimating what the human equivalent replacement is. Um, I think the, I think actually Enro release a more recent chart.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

48 / belief

I mean, I think, I think like, you know, do do what some companies are doing, you know, I’m not saying it’s my situation exactly, but like give them equity and like Uhhuh it should probably would be worth more, uh, just like sort of helping them out.

“I mean, I think, I think like, you know, do do what some companies are doing, you know, I’m not saying it’s my situation exactly, but like give them equity and like Uhhuh it should probably would be worth more, uh, just like sort of helping them out.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

49 / belief

I think I, I think people take these eval numbers in pretty charts for granted, but No, there, I mean, there’s, there’s lots of really smart people at work during all this.

“I think I, I think people take these eval numbers in pretty charts for granted, but No, there, I mean, there’s, there’s lots of really smart people at work during all this.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

51 / belief

I think, you know, so one of the things that stability ai, uh, made an impression on me was like, well, you know, and at least now we can remake Game of Throne Season eight, and I can, you know, uh, like, like it was meant to be not, uh, not rushed.

“I think, you know, so one of the things that stability ai, uh, made an impression on me was like, well, you know, and at least now we can remake Game of Throne Season eight, and I can, you know, uh, like, like it was meant to be not, uh, not rushed.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

53 / belief

I think the let’s, let’s sort of reset on like, what was the original work that you guys did for Verified, which I think was pretty substantial.

“I think the let’s, let’s sort of reset on like, what was the original work that you guys did for Verified, which I think was pretty substantial.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

54 / belief

Maybe decade, but, uh, uh, just like I, I think, you know, I, I just going back to the discussion about how a GI would just kind of consume everything.

“Maybe decade, but, uh, uh, just like I, I think, you know, I, I just going back to the discussion about how a GI would just kind of consume everything.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

55 / belief

I, I mean, to me, like, you know, philanthropic, like building on cloud code, I think, uh, it makes sense to me the, the real.

“I, I mean, to me, like, you know, philanthropic, like building on cloud code, I think, uh, it makes sense to me the, the real.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

56 / belief

I, I think that, uh, you know, speaking about ad there’s, there’s a really like interesting tie in that obviously you guys are hit on, which is like these sort, this sort of like America first movement or like sort of re industrialized here.

“I, I think that, uh, you know, speaking about ad there’s, there’s a really like interesting tie in that obviously you guys are hit on, which is like these sort, this sort of like America first movement or like sort of re industrialized here.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

57 / belief

My, my, uh, sort of, uh, thesis, which we’re not gonna have to go into here is actually I think a, um, what I’ve been calling Agent Labs, which are [00:54:00] people who build on top of, uh, all the other models.

“My, my, uh, sort of, uh, thesis, which we’re not gonna have to go into here is actually I think a, um, what I’ve been calling Agent Labs, which are [00:54:00] people who build on top of, uh, all the other models.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

58 / belief

Uh, cool. Uh, I think. There, there’s more general, like broad questions, but like, I guess what, what do you, uh, wish you were asked more in, in, in general, like, you know, like you, you have such a broad scope.

“Uh, cool. Uh, I think. There, there’s more general, like broad questions, but like, I guess what, what do you, uh, wish you were asked more in, in, in general, like, you know, like you, you have such a broad scope.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

59 / belief

I think, uh, one thing that, uh, anti-gravity from, from Google also did was like, just come out the gate to very, very strong multimodal, including videos, and that’s the highest bandwidth communication prompt that you can give to the model, which is fantastic.

“I think, uh, one thing that, uh, anti-gravity from, from Google also did was like, just come out the gate to very, very strong multimodal, including videos, and that’s the highest bandwidth communication prompt that you can give to the model, which is fantastic.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

61 / belief

Uh, w w while we’re on this topic, you know, I think there’s a lot of, um, uh, this, the concept of precision at all is weird when we’re sampling, you know, uh, we just, at the end of this, we’re going to have all these like chips that I’ll do like very good math.

“Uh, w w while we’re on this topic, you know, I think there’s a lot of, um, uh, this, the concept of precision at all is weird when we’re sampling, you know, uh, we just, at the end of this, we’re going to have all these like chips that I’ll do like very good math.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

62 / belief

I think for me, one way in which I think about world models is just like this, like, having this consistent model of the world where everything that you generate operates within the rules of that world.

“I think for me, one way in which I think about world models is just like this, like, having this consistent model of the world where everything that you generate operates within the rules of that world.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

67 / belief

I did give you shit for missing fireworks, and how do you have a model benchmarking thing without fireworks? But you had together, you had perplexity, and I think we just started chatting there.

“I did give you shit for missing fireworks, and how do you have a model benchmarking thing without fireworks? But you had together, you had perplexity, and I think we just started chatting there.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

68 / belief

Let’s pick on hardware efficiency since you also have, you also track hardware stuff. And I think the general assertion or the message is that the efficiency from next gen Nvidia chips is actually not 4X.

“Let’s pick on hardware efficiency since you also have, you also track hardware stuff. And I think the general assertion or the message is that the efficiency from next gen Nvidia chips is actually not 4X.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

69 / belief

I think to some extent, I’m mixed opinion on that one because to some extent, your target audience is not people in AI Grants who are obviously at the frontier.

“I think to some extent, I’m mixed opinion on that one because to some extent, your target audience is not people in AI Grants who are obviously at the frontier.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

72 / belief

Yeah. And I think the reason I have to be here in SF is because I make friends with people who know things and are smarter than me, and we do go for chats and they're nice enough to share some stuff.

“Yeah. And I think the reason I have to be here in SF is because I make friends with people who know things and are smarter than me, and we do go for chats and they're nice enough to share some stuff.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

73 / belief

I don't, I think that's just a more general policy of no matter what they have at the top tier, they always want to have smaller versions of that in the, in the lower tiers.

“I don't, I think that's just a more general policy of no matter what they have at the top tier, they always want to have smaller versions of that in the, in the lower tiers.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

74 / belief

We were talking on, on the car about Decagon and Sierra, obviously Brett, Brett Taylor is founder of Sierra. And yeah, it seems like there's just this, these layers of agents that'll like, I think you just look at like the income statement or like the, the org chart of any large scaled company and you start picking them off one by one.

“We were talking on, on the car about Decagon and Sierra, obviously Brett, Brett Taylor is founder of Sierra. And yeah, it seems like there's just this, these layers of agents that'll like, I think you just look at like the income statement or like the, the org chart of any large scaled company and you start picking them off one by one.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

78 / belief

I should also thank Sean Puri, who I've chatted with back and forth, who's been, I guess, getting me in touch with your people. But also, I think like, just giving us a lot of context, because obviously, My First Million joined you guys, and they've been chatting with you guys a lot.

“I should also thank Sean Puri, who I've chatted with back and forth, who's been, I guess, getting me in touch with your people. But also, I think like, just giving us a lot of context, because obviously, My First Million joined you guys, and they've been chatting with you guys a lot.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

79 / belief

You are kind of a marketplace, but he has a third angle, which is the model providers, and he lets them compete. And I think that sort of Chai three-way marketplace maybe makes a lot of sense.

“You are kind of a marketplace, but he has a third angle, which is the model providers, and he lets them compete. And I think that sort of Chai three-way marketplace maybe makes a lot of sense.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

82 / belief

Uh, I'm not trying to sway anyone, but yeah, I think like something I struggled with, with this conviction, you said you pursue things to conviction, but like you start out not knowing anything.

“Uh, I'm not trying to sway anyone, but yeah, I think like something I struggled with, with this conviction, you said you pursue things to conviction, but like you start out not knowing anything.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

84 / belief

Nice. So I really had to talk about it also because I think people interested in AI want to think about like, how can we, we're an AI podcast, we have to talk about the AI podcast app.

“Nice. So I really had to talk about it also because I think people interested in AI want to think about like, how can we, we're an AI podcast, we have to talk about the AI podcast app.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

91 / belief

Comparing and then, you know, covering the EU and then, yeah, like I said, like going into the meat production and then it'll also, what's nice is it kind of reasons over like why are there differences? And I think what's really cool here is like, it's, it's showing that there's like a difference in philosophy between how the U.

“Comparing and then, you know, covering the EU and then, yeah, like I said, like going into the meat production and then it'll also, what's nice is it kind of reasons over like why are there differences? And I think what's really cool here is like, it's, it's showing that there's like a difference in philosophy between how the U.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

93 / belief

One thing I just, I just observe is that I think the early Google days had this interesting mix of PM and engineer, which I think you are, you didn't, you didn't wait for PM to tell you these are my, this is my PRD.

“One thing I just, I just observe is that I think the early Google days had this interesting mix of PM and engineer, which I think you are, you didn't, you didn't wait for PM to tell you these are my, this is my PRD.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

94 / belief

What are the shapes of graphs that people should know? So the way that I would phrase this is I think Anthropic did a very good public service and also kind of surprisingly influential blog post, I would say, when they wrote Building Effective Agents.

“What are the shapes of graphs that people should know? So the way that I would phrase this is I think Anthropic did a very good public service and also kind of surprisingly influential blog post, I would say, when they wrote Building Effective Agents.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

101 / belief

Oh, I'll also say that I think one takeaway I got from your, this conversation is that ChatGPT will have to integrate a lot more with my life.

“Oh, I'll also say that I think one takeaway I got from your, this conversation is that ChatGPT will have to integrate a lot more with my life.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

102 / belief

I think there's a lot of inference insights that we can get from that, as well as human psychology insights, kind of a weird blend of the two.

“I think there's a lot of inference insights that we can get from that, as well as human psychology insights, kind of a weird blend of the two.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

103 / belief

I think one problem I have, and this is a broader products question maybe, is that the ELOs apply to the whole user population.

“I think one problem I have, and this is a broader products question maybe, is that the ELOs apply to the whole user population.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

105 / belief

I would say if you were to take the exit being O1 for search, literally, you really need to prioritize search trajectories, like almost maybe paying a bunch of grad students to go research things.

“I would say if you were to take the exit being O1 for search, literally, you really need to prioritize search trajectories, like almost maybe paying a bunch of grad students to go research things.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

107 / belief

I think the collective terminology has been inference time, and I think that makes sense because test time, calling it test, meaning, has a very pre trained bias, meaning that the only reason for running inference at all is to test your model.

“I think the collective terminology has been inference time, and I think that makes sense because test time, calling it test, meaning, has a very pre trained bias, meaning that the only reason for running inference at all is to test your model.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

108 / belief

Everyone knew, like, F1 we had a preview at the Fireworks HQ, and then [01:37:00] I think some other labs did it, but I think R1 and QWQ, Quill, from the Quent team, Both Alibaba affiliated, I think, are the leading contenders on that front end.

“Everyone knew, like, F1 we had a preview at the Fireworks HQ, and then [01:37:00] I think some other labs did it, but I think R1 and QWQ, Quill, from the Quent team, Both Alibaba affiliated, I think, are the leading contenders on that front end.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

111 / belief

I think every, I mean, there should be, just like every consumer product is going to have a, going to eventually want a gateway, you know, for, for managing their requests and ops tool, you know, that kind of stuff, um, code interpreter for maybe not exposing the code, but executing code under the hood for sure.

“I think every, I mean, there should be, just like every consumer product is going to have a, going to eventually want a gateway, you know, for, for managing their requests and ops tool, you know, that kind of stuff, um, code interpreter for maybe not exposing the code, but executing code under the hood for sure.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

116 / belief

NVIDIA, I think we continue to talk about, I think I was at the Taiwanese trade show, Comtex, and saw him signing, you know, You know, women body [01:30:00] parts. And I think that was maybe a sign of the times, maybe a sign that things have peaked, but things are clearly not peaked because they continued going.

“NVIDIA, I think we continue to talk about, I think I was at the Taiwanese trade show, Comtex, and saw him signing, you know, You know, women body [01:30:00] parts. And I think that was maybe a sign of the times, maybe a sign that things have peaked, but things are clearly not peaked because they continued going.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

117 / belief

I think if your, if your, your job is a, at least AI content creator or VC or, you know, someone who, whose job it is to stay on, stay on top of things, you should already be spending like a thousand dollars a month on, on stuff.

“I think if your, if your, your job is a, at least AI content creator or VC or, you know, someone who, whose job it is to stay on, stay on top of things, you should already be spending like a thousand dollars a month on, on stuff.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

118 / belief

Um, and that one, I would say Risa is obviously a star, but she's been on every episode, every podcast, but Isamah, I think, you know, actually being the guy who worked on the audio model, being able to talk to him, I think was, was a great gift for us.

“Um, and that one, I would say Risa is obviously a star, but she's been on every episode, every podcast, but Isamah, I think, you know, actually being the guy who worked on the audio model, being able to talk to him, I think was, was a great gift for us.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

121 / belief

Uh, I think, um, I have been asked my opinion on this before, and I said, I think I said it on a podcast, which is like, the main layer that you need is [01:38:00] the separate off roles, so that you don't assume it's a human, um, doing these things.

“Uh, I think, um, I have been asked my opinion on this before, and I said, I think I said it on a podcast, which is like, the main layer that you need is [01:38:00] the separate off roles, so that you don't assume it's a human, um, doing these things.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

126 / belief

We're not going to talk about the training for that because that's still confidential. But I think Anthropic's done a really good job, like applying the model to different things.

“We're not going to talk about the training for that because that's still confidential. But I think Anthropic's done a really good job, like applying the model to different things.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

128 / belief

Like, you're kind of skeptical about self-driving as a business. So I want to double click on this a little bit, because I mean, I think that shouldn't be taken away.

“Like, you're kind of skeptical about self-driving as a business. So I want to double click on this a little bit, because I mean, I think that shouldn't be taken away.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

129 / belief

E2B is a close friend of ours that Alessio has led around in, but also I think there's others where they're focusing on snapshotting memory so that it can do time travel for debugging.

“E2B is a close friend of ours that Alessio has led around in, but also I think there's others where they're focusing on snapshotting memory so that it can do time travel for debugging.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

130 / belief

For people who don't know, who maybe haven't dived into SWE-Bench, I think the general perception is they're like tasks that a software engineer could do.

“For people who don't know, who maybe haven't dived into SWE-Bench, I think the general perception is they're like tasks that a software engineer could do.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

134 / belief

Anastasios, I actually saw you, I think at last year's NeurIPS. You were presenting a paper, which I don't really super understand, but it was some theory paper about how your method was very dominating over other sort of search methods.

“Anastasios, I actually saw you, I think at last year's NeurIPS. You were presenting a paper, which I don't really super understand, but it was some theory paper about how your method was very dominating over other sort of search methods.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

136 / belief

I noticed that you say no a lot, I think, or you try to ship one thing and that there's different about you than maybe other PMs or other teams that try to ship, but they're like, Oh, here are all the knobs.

“I noticed that you say no a lot, I think, or you try to ship one thing and that there's different about you than maybe other PMs or other teams that try to ship, but they're like, Oh, here are all the knobs.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

137 / belief

I'm trying to figure out what you nailed compared to others. And I think that the way that you treat your, the AI is like a little bit different than a lot of the builders I talked to.

“I'm trying to figure out what you nailed compared to others. And I think that the way that you treat your, the AI is like a little bit different than a lot of the builders I talked to.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

139 / belief

You know, I think a lot of it is competent PMing and engineering, but also just, you know, it's interesting how a lot of these projects are always like low key research previews for you.

“You know, I think a lot of it is competent PMing and engineering, but also just, you know, it's interesting how a lot of these projects are always like low key research previews for you.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

141 / belief

I think sometimes the difficulty is because we're dealing with non-deterministic models, sometimes you just got a bad roll of the dice and it's always on the distribution that you could get something bad.

“I think sometimes the difficulty is because we're dealing with non-deterministic models, sometimes you just got a bad roll of the dice and it's always on the distribution that you could get something bad.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

146 / belief

I've had the joy of watching you build this company a little bit, and I think you're one of the top founders I've ever met, so it's just great to sit down with you and learn a little bit.

“I've had the joy of watching you build this company a little bit, and I think you're one of the top founders I've ever met, so it's just great to sit down with you and learn a little bit.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

147 / belief

You can also do evals and all the other stuff. So there's a lot of tooling, and I think you saw something or you just had the self-belief where I didn't, or you saw something that was missing still, even in that space from DIY no-code Google Sheets to custom tool, they were first movers.

“You can also do evals and all the other stuff. So there's a lot of tooling, and I think you saw something or you just had the self-belief where I didn't, or you saw something that was missing still, even in that space from DIY no-code Google Sheets to custom tool, they were first movers.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

148 / belief

One other part of the triangle that I drew that you disagree with, and I thought that was very insightful, was fine-tuning. So I had all these overlapping circles, and I think you agreed with most of them, and I was like, at the center of it all, because you need logging from Ops, and then you need a gateway, and then you need a database with a framework, or whatever, was fine-tuning.

“One other part of the triangle that I drew that you disagree with, and I thought that was very insightful, was fine-tuning. So I had all these overlapping circles, and I think you agreed with most of them, and I was like, at the center of it all, because you need logging from Ops, and then you need a gateway, and then you need a database with a framework, or whatever, was fine-tuning.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

153 / belief

I think being so early in single store also taught you, among all these engineering lessons, you also learned a lot of business lessons that you took with you into Impira.

“I think being so early in single store also taught you, among all these engineering lessons, you also learned a lot of business lessons that you took with you into Impira.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

155 / belief

Like, you know, I think, I think, before we recorded, we discussed a little bit about the sensitivities around basically calling random store owners and putting, putting like an AI on them.

“Like, you know, I think, I think, before we recorded, we discussed a little bit about the sensitivities around basically calling random store owners and putting, putting like an AI on them.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

158 / belief

Yeah, I have more questions on, a couple questions on voice, and then also, like, your call to action, like, what you want feedback on, right? So, I think we should spend a bit more time on voice, because I feel like that's, like, the big splash thing.

“Yeah, I have more questions on, a couple questions on voice, and then also, like, your call to action, like, what you want feedback on, right? So, I think we should spend a bit more time on voice, because I feel like that's, like, the big splash thing.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

161 / belief

I think the problem here comes from like, I think we understand how to do this in a normal ML context, but when you're trying to build AGI, the real world is everything.

“I think the problem here comes from like, I think we understand how to do this in a normal ML context, but when you're trying to build AGI, the real world is everything.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

162 / belief

Distill the knowledge of the benchmark into a model, and then obviously it's going to perform better on the benchmark. But I think what's less understood now is, um, you know, the sort of un gamable leaderboards, like the LMSys leaderboard, like some, it's also possible to game those things, and you can distill smaller models to do well on those.

“Distill the knowledge of the benchmark into a model, and then obviously it's going to perform better on the benchmark. But I think what's less understood now is, um, you know, the sort of un gamable leaderboards, like the LMSys leaderboard, like some, it's also possible to game those things, and you can distill smaller models to do well on those.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

165 / belief

I think one of the decisions before you as a CEO is how much you have like the house model be like the one true thing, and then how much you spend time working on customer models.

“I think one of the decisions before you as a CEO is how much you have like the house model be like the one true thing, and then how much you spend time working on customer models.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

168 / belief

I hope that I sort of editorialized the title a little bit, and I know you were slightly uncomfortable with it, but you just own it anyway. I think you're very good at the hot takes.

“I hope that I sort of editorialized the title a little bit, and I know you were slightly uncomfortable with it, but you just own it anyway. I think you're very good at the hot takes.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

169 / belief

People consider Streamlit and Gradio to be the state of the art, but I think there's so much to improve, and having what you call web foundations and web fundamentals at the core of it, I think, would be really helpful.

“People consider Streamlit and Gradio to be the state of the art, but I think there's so much to improve, and having what you call web foundations and web fundamentals at the core of it, I think, would be really helpful.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

172 / belief

Open source is synonymous with local, private, and all the good things that people want. And I think their vision of even running this stuff on CPUs at a very, very fast speed by just being extremely cracked, I think is very understated.

“Open source is synonymous with local, private, and all the good things that people want. And I think their vision of even running this stuff on CPUs at a very, very fast speed by just being extremely cracked, I think is very understated.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

177 / belief

We just didn't have the paper beforehand. But I think, like, when I call Lama3, the synthetic data model is you have the license for it, but then you also have the roadmap, the recipe, because it's in the paper.

“We just didn't have the paper beforehand. But I think, like, when I call Lama3, the synthetic data model is you have the license for it, but then you also have the roadmap, the recipe, because it's in the paper.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

180 / belief

To me, I think a lot of people were trying to puzzle out the strategic moves between OpenAI and Apple here because Apple is in a very good position to commoditize OpenAI.

“To me, I think a lot of people were trying to puzzle out the strategic moves between OpenAI and Apple here because Apple is in a very good position to commoditize OpenAI.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

181 / belief

Some things don't change. But on top of that, I think one of the reasons I put vector databases inside of these wars is in order to grow, the vector databases have to become more frameworks.

“Some things don't change. But on top of that, I think one of the reasons I put vector databases inside of these wars is in order to grow, the vector databases have to become more frameworks.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

187 / belief

I would say the diffusion people have actually started to swing back to pixel level and probably that will presage the language people also moving towards, you know, 1 million vocabulary and then, you know, whatever the natural limit is for character level.

“I would say the diffusion people have actually started to swing back to pixel level and probably that will presage the language people also moving towards, you know, 1 million vocabulary and then, you know, whatever the natural limit is for character level.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

188 / belief

One of our previous guests, Brian Bischoff, is also asking about like, how do we think about evals for practical things like confidence estimation, structured output, you know, stuff like that.

“One of our previous guests, Brian Bischoff, is also asking about like, how do we think about evals for practical things like confidence estimation, structured output, you know, stuff like that.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

190 / belief

I think the only other, before this, it was kind of like ML perf, that's the other big leaderboard that I can think about where, obviously, maybe AlexNet, specific competitions, specific benchmarks, but not something that aggregates across all the other benchmarks.

“I think the only other, before this, it was kind of like ML perf, that's the other big leaderboard that I can think about where, obviously, maybe AlexNet, specific competitions, specific benchmarks, but not something that aggregates across all the other benchmarks.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

191 / belief

I think. Okay. The last part that makes me uncomfortable about MOE debate is actually it's related to another paper that you wrote about the efficiency misnomer, in the sense that, like, now people are trying to make the debate all about the active parameters rather than total parameters.

“I think. Okay. The last part that makes me uncomfortable about MOE debate is actually it's related to another paper that you wrote about the efficiency misnomer, in the sense that, like, now people are trying to make the debate all about the active parameters rather than total parameters.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

193 / belief

We can make this the ending conversation, which is, I think you're an inspiration to a lot of other people who want to follow your career path, and, you know, I'm really glad that we got the chance to, like, walk through your career a bit.

“We can make this the ending conversation, which is, I think you're an inspiration to a lot of other people who want to follow your career path, and, you know, I'm really glad that we got the chance to, like, walk through your career a bit.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

194 / belief

I think in retrospect, you understand now that this is a very valuable experience. And I think now, today, it will be much more competitive to get the job that you got, whereas you didn't, you know, two years ago, you didn't have to try that hard to get it.

“I think in retrospect, you understand now that this is a very valuable experience. And I think now, today, it will be much more competitive to get the job that you got, whereas you didn't, you know, two years ago, you didn't have to try that hard to get it.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

200 / belief

I think that you navigate the meta very well, and part of my goal here is to also isolate how you think about the meta for other people to reflect on, because I think obviously you do it very well.

“I think that you navigate the meta very well, and part of my goal here is to also isolate how you think about the meta for other people to reflect on, because I think obviously you do it very well.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

205 / belief

I forgot to mention that you also run Ink and Switch, which is one of the leading research labs, in my mind, of the tools for thought productivity space, , whatever people mentioned there, or maybe future of programming even, a little bit of that.

“I forgot to mention that you also run Ink and Switch, which is one of the leading research labs, in my mind, of the tools for thought productivity space, , whatever people mentioned there, or maybe future of programming even, a little bit of that.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

206 / belief

I mean , I, I selected as one of my keynotes, Justine Tunney, working at LlamaFall in Mozilla, because I think there's a lot of people interested in that stuff.

“I mean , I, I selected as one of my keynotes, Justine Tunney, working at LlamaFall in Mozilla, because I think there's a lot of people interested in that stuff.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

207 / belief

You know, people always trying to define the difference between ML and AI. And I think in AI, we definitely care a lot more about out of domain generalization and that's all under the umbrella of learning, but it is a very specific kind of learning.

“You know, people always trying to define the difference between ML and AI. And I think in AI, we definitely care a lot more about out of domain generalization and that's all under the umbrella of learning, but it is a very specific kind of learning.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

213 / belief

Perfect Well, thank you so much This is I think you're very naturally incentivized by Growing community and giving your thought and insight to the rest of us.

“Perfect Well, thank you so much This is I think you're very naturally incentivized by Growing community and giving your thought and insight to the rest of us.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

219 / belief

I think maybe the only new thing was this Reddit deal with Google for like a 60 million dollar deal just ahead of their IPO, very conveniently turning Reddit into a AI data company.

“I think maybe the only new thing was this Reddit deal with Google for like a 60 million dollar deal just ahead of their IPO, very conveniently turning Reddit into a AI data company.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

220 / belief

I went and looked at when Meta went from being a VR company to an AI company. And I think the stock I'm trying to look up the details now.

“I went and looked at when Meta went from being a VR company to an AI company. And I think the stock I'm trying to look up the details now.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

221 / belief

We definitely did see some leaks on GPT 4. 5, as I think a lot of people reported and I'm not sure if you covered it.

“We definitely did see some leaks on GPT 4. 5, as I think a lot of people reported and I'm not sure if you covered it.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

222 / belief

Wars are fought around limited resources. And I think probably the, you know, the most limited resource is talent, but the talent expresses itself in a number of areas.

“Wars are fought around limited resources. And I think probably the, you know, the most limited resource is talent, but the talent expresses itself in a number of areas.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space
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