High Signal Podcasts Evidence ledger
Method
Browse

Public evidence record

Max Schoening

Published podcast speaker

Claims
25
Episodes
1
Shows
1
Named items
2

Books, apps, and tools

The evidenced stack.

Browse the grouped index →

book / recommends

Seeing Like a State

“It depends on the person. I would say ... So Code by Charles Petzold, which is The Secret Language of Hardware and Software. It basically is like, "Do you know how computers actually work?" It is actually surprising to me how many professionally employed programmers don't know how computers work. That one, the funny thing is it does not have a line of code in it until chapter 27, so exceptionally good book. I have a weird one, which is Tools of Conviviality by Ivan Illich. It's the contrast between, you look at the history of technology and tools that let users exercise human ingenuity and autonomy versus tools that are more at industrial scale that almost have become destructive to human autonomy. And then the last one that I give mostly to executives that I think are creating a lot of systems is Seeing Like a State, which I think there is a famous stack overflow that popularized this, but it's the idea of, are you actually just designing a system so that you have legibility, but the way that you've created that legibility completely neglects the reality of the system on the ground. And so I think of it as, great, you're the executive and you have these status reports and you think you know exactly how your teams work. If you actually spend time with the teams, you would realize that none of that is actually true. And so I think executives love creating fake legibility for themselves because we don't like noise as humans, right? We want the signal, but there's often less signal in it than one might think.”

Lenny's Podcast · 3 May 2026

Evidence receipt · Source ↗

book / recommends

Tools of Conviviality

“It depends on the person. I would say ... So Code by Charles Petzold, which is The Secret Language of Hardware and Software. It basically is like, "Do you know how computers actually work?" It is actually surprising to me how many professionally employed programmers don't know how computers work. That one, the funny thing is it does not have a line of code in it until chapter 27, so exceptionally good book. I have a weird one, which is Tools of Conviviality by Ivan Illich. It's the contrast between, you look at the history of technology and tools that let users exercise human ingenuity and autonomy versus tools that are more at industrial scale that almost have become destructive to human autonomy. And then the last one that I give mostly to executives that I think are creating a lot of systems is Seeing Like a State, which I think there is a famous stack overflow that popularized this, but it's the idea of, are you actually just designing a system so that you have legibility, but the way that you've created that legibility completely neglects the reality of the system on the ground. And so I think of it as, great, you're the executive and you have these status reports and you think you know exactly how your teams work. If you actually spend time with the teams, you would realize that none of that is actually true. And so I think executives love creating fake legibility for themselves because we don't like noise as humans, right? We want the signal, but there's often less signal in it than one might think.”

Lenny's Podcast · 3 May 2026

Evidence receipt · Source ↗

Claim ledger

What Max said.

25 transcript-backed records

01 / recommendation

Recommends Tools of Conviviality. Recommends Seeing Like a State.

“It depends on the person. I would say ... So Code by Charles Petzold, which is The Secret Language of Hardware and Software. It basically is like, "Do you know how computers actually work?" It is actually surprising to me how many professionally employed programmers don't know how computers work. That one, the funny thing is it does not have a line of code in it until chapter 27, so exceptionally good book. I have a weird one, which is Tools of Conviviality by Ivan Illich. It's the contrast between, you look at the history of technology and tools that let users exercise human ingenuity and autonomy versus tools that are more at industrial scale that almost have become destructive to human autonomy. And then the last one that I give mostly to executives that I think are creating a lot of systems is Seeing Like a State, which I think there is a famous stack overflow that popularized this, but it's the idea of, are you actually just designing a system so that you have legibility, but the way that you've created that legibility completely neglects the reality of the system on the ground. And so I think of it as, great, you're the executive and you have these status reports and you think you know exactly how your teams work. If you actually spend time with the teams, you would realize that none of that is actually true. And so I think executives love creating fake legibility for themselves because we don't like noise as humans, right? We want the signal, but there's often less signal in it than one might think.”
Speaker
Max Schoening
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

03 / belief

I think that would have probably happened anyways, but I can tell you the origin story of it, which is when I joined Notion, we were building a lot of chat interfaces and we were designing the chat interfaces in Figma.

“I think that would have probably happened anyways, but I can tell you the origin story of it, which is when I joined Notion, we were building a lot of chat interfaces and we were designing the chat interfaces in Figma.”
Speaker
Max Schoening
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

04 / belief

Just to be clear, not everybody has that luck, but I think that's the folks that I find discussing this the most are the ones that are in the bucket of luck.

“Just to be clear, not everybody has that luck, but I think that's the folks that I find discussing this the most are the ones that are in the bucket of luck.”
Speaker
Max Schoening
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

06 / evaluation

I think Dropbox is such an interesting study where it was the little menu bar icon that was so good at syncing that you could even use it as a symbol for, do I have internet or not? Because it was better at figuring out whether you had an internet connection than your Mac itself.

“I think Dropbox is such an interesting study where it was the little menu bar icon that was so good at syncing that you could even use it as a symbol for, do I have internet or not? Because it was better at figuring out whether you had an internet connection than your Mac itself.”
Speaker
Max Schoening
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

07 / belief

I think the way I would describe it is, and I tell this to myself as well, which is like, okay, do you drive Notion like it's stolen, which is we're not the founders.

“I think the way I would describe it is, and I tell this to myself as well, which is like, okay, do you drive Notion like it's stolen, which is we're not the founders.”
Speaker
Max Schoening
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

08 / uncertainty

To be fair, I do understand why companies do that, which is I am surprised by how much work it takes to get people to identify the outer loop of their work and enlist an agent and build the ... I don't know.

“To be fair, I do understand why companies do that, which is I am surprised by how much work it takes to get people to identify the outer loop of their work and enlist an agent and build the ... I don't know.”
Speaker
Max Schoening
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

09 / belief

I've never really been great at this, but there's no point in writing a PRD if you can just do the janky version and do the, "Here's the demo of what I think we should build.

“I've never really been great at this, but there's no point in writing a PRD if you can just do the janky version and do the, "Here's the demo of what I think we should build.”
Speaker
Max Schoening
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

11 / commitment

The one thing I will say that I've noticed is specifically for designers, the designers that I think have, at least in software design, high taste are the ones that both have side projects that they build where they're responsible of the full thing and extent.

“The one thing I will say that I've noticed is specifically for designers, the designers that I think have, at least in software design, high taste are the ones that both have side projects that they build where they're responsible of the full thing and extent.”
Speaker
Max Schoening
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

12 / uncertainty

Look at Japan, like Japanese craftspeople, right? They've just been, I don't know, painting the bowl for however long and it just takes a while.

“Look at Japan, like Japanese craftspeople, right? They've just been, I don't know, painting the bowl for however long and it just takes a while.”
Speaker
Max Schoening
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

14 / belief

I think there's actually a subtle thing, which is you push your code publicly to or publicly within your organization or your team, and then a thing roasts your code and tells you how terrible of a developer you are.

“I think there's actually a subtle thing, which is you push your code publicly to or publicly within your organization or your team, and then a thing roasts your code and tells you how terrible of a developer you are.”
Speaker
Max Schoening
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

16 / observation

Agents don't really like walls of like, "Oh, I have to go through this narrow orifice to talk to this other data repository." And I think for the first time, it is obvious to people why a connected workspace is actually valuable because it's great.

“Agents don't really like walls of like, "Oh, I have to go through this narrow orifice to talk to this other data repository." And I think for the first time, it is obvious to people why a connected workspace is actually valuable because it's great.”
Speaker
Max Schoening
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

17 / observation

We're launching a new feature soon and we're working on this landing page to describe the feature. And I found that when people make landing pages, first of all, their writing skills just deteriorate immediately because they want to sound clever and marketing speak comes out of their mouth.

“We're launching a new feature soon and we're working on this landing page to describe the feature. And I found that when people make landing pages, first of all, their writing skills just deteriorate immediately because they want to sound clever and marketing speak comes out of their mouth.”
Speaker
Max Schoening
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

18 / recommendation

You should probably review more code than put more effort into reviewing code than you do, but at least on the writing side, every time there is an intervention, a human intervention, it should feel a little bit like a bug. I think that's a good litmus test for how, I don't know, agent-filled you are.

“You should probably review more code than put more effort into reviewing code than you do, but at least on the writing side, every time there is an intervention, a human intervention, it should feel a little bit like a bug. I think that's a good litmus test for how, I don't know, agent-filled you are.”
Speaker
Max Schoening
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

20 / preference

First of all, I think I would actually say that I have contributed to some really great products, not built them because I think I did not use to believe this early on in my career, but the longer I'm in this, the more I care about what's the team that's building the thing.

“First of all, I think I would actually say that I have contributed to some really great products, not built them because I think I did not use to believe this early on in my career, but the longer I'm in this, the more I care about what's the team that's building the thing.”
Speaker
Max Schoening
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

21 / evaluation

Now, you brought this up presumably because I think you may have not thought about malleable software too much before AI, but now you're making your own tools maybe for podcast recording, for prepping for shows or, I don't know, whatever.

“Now, you brought this up presumably because I think you may have not thought about malleable software too much before AI, but now you're making your own tools maybe for podcast recording, for prepping for shows or, I don't know, whatever.”
Speaker
Max Schoening
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

23 / prediction

I think before, it was very easy to always say, "Well, I will never be able to do this because insert skill issue." And I think we're realizing that even if you have the skills at your fingertips because now, I don't know, an AGI adjacent model helps you.

“I think before, it was very easy to always say, "Well, I will never be able to do this because insert skill issue." And I think we're realizing that even if you have the skills at your fingertips because now, I don't know, an AGI adjacent model helps you.”
Speaker
Max Schoening
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

25 / preference

I'm actually curious how you think about how it ties to malleable software because the main reason why I use that as a clip of reference is I'm very much in the camp of design should be first useful and then beautiful.

“I'm actually curious how you think about how it ties to malleable software because the main reason why I use that as a clip of reference is I'm very much in the camp of design should be first useful and then beautiful.”
Speaker
Max Schoening
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast
Search evidence