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Lenny's Podcast / episode intelligence

Notion’s lost years, its near collapse during Covid, staying small to move fast, the joy and suffering of building horizontal, more | Ivan Zhao (CEO and co-founder)

6 Mar 2025 21 published claims 2 attributable people

Speakers in the public record

Claim mix

belief 9evaluation 7preference 2uncertainty 1commitment 1prediction 1

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Every row below preserves an exact excerpt. Identified speakers are linked; unresolved voices are labeled and excluded from people counts.

Claim ledger

The useful parts, with receipts.

21 published records

02 / belief

I think for a while, okay, once we start revenue, product grows faster now. Investors start knocking on the door was like, I remember one day it's like there's a dog food, dog treats sent to our entire office.

“I think for a while, okay, once we start revenue, product grows faster now. Investors start knocking on the door was like, I remember one day it's like there's a dog food, dog treats sent to our entire office.”
Speaker
Ivan Zhao
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

04 / belief

There's a different dimension of things just cooking together that come together as a product more as a business than what is that? And I think a product maker, business maker's job is to find that sweet spot of all the multiple dimensions, then create something has a right to exist.

“There's a different dimension of things just cooking together that come together as a product more as a business than what is that? And I think a product maker, business maker's job is to find that sweet spot of all the multiple dimensions, then create something has a right to exist.”
Speaker
Ivan Zhao
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

05 / belief

I think the good advantage is if a customer use Notion, they can address those three, four use cases in one place.

“I think the good advantage is if a customer use Notion, they can address those three, four use cases in one place.”
Speaker
Ivan Zhao
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

06 / evaluation

Then it's like what is this? It's like underpowered compared to other competitor products to doing product management and it doesn't work well with the rest of Notion like I said.

“Then it's like what is this? It's like underpowered compared to other competitor products to doing product management and it doesn't work well with the rest of Notion like I said.”
Speaker
Ivan Zhao
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

07 / belief

Yeah, because of the way how we just hire someone in the office as a dog. Then I think we post on Twitter or something.

“Yeah, because of the way how we just hire someone in the office as a dog. Then I think we post on Twitter or something.”
Speaker
Ivan Zhao
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

08 / belief

I think going back to me and Simon, high is never that high, low is never that low, it never hit us as a binary state.

“I think going back to me and Simon, high is never that high, low is never that low, it never hit us as a binary state.”
Speaker
Ivan Zhao
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

09 / belief

" I think there's an element of staying lean, like you've let everyone go and it's just you and Simon again.

“" I think there's an element of staying lean, like you've let everyone go and it's just you and Simon again.”
Speaker
Lenny Rachitsky
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

11 / uncertainty

I don't know if it was this point or later, but the Douglas Engelbart paper ended up being a very meaningful moment for you.

“I don't know if it was this point or later, but the Douglas Engelbart paper ended up being a very meaningful moment for you.”
Speaker
Lenny Rachitsky
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

12 / evaluation

I love that you keep coming back to this idea of there's the ideals and the values and the vision and what you're trying to do, and then you have to find the way to frame it and package it so that people actually understand and want it.

“I love that you keep coming back to this idea of there's the ideals and the values and the vision and what you're trying to do, and then you have to find the way to frame it and package it so that people actually understand and want it.”
Speaker
Lenny Rachitsky
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

13 / evaluation

And as a leader in the company, you decide who sit around you on the bus seats. That dictates how fast our overall bus moves, dictate your work and life experience at this company because you pick your roommate, you pick your seat mates.

“And as a leader in the company, you decide who sit around you on the bus seats. That dictates how fast our overall bus moves, dictate your work and life experience at this company because you pick your roommate, you pick your seat mates.”
Speaker
Ivan Zhao
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

14 / preference

There was Sequoia famously invests in seven sins or seven human natures of human because they're so powerful if you just latch onto them, you can create a business, you can create a product. But at least I prefer to amplify creativity and beauty in the domain of software.

“There was Sequoia famously invests in seven sins or seven human natures of human because they're so powerful if you just latch onto them, you can create a business, you can create a product. But at least I prefer to amplify creativity and beauty in the domain of software.”
Speaker
Ivan Zhao
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

16 / evaluation

I would say the third one, which is even more fascinating, it's for the longest time and it's still is one of the biggest weaknesses of building for Legos, it's hard to piece together.

“I would say the third one, which is even more fascinating, it's for the longest time and it's still is one of the biggest weaknesses of building for Legos, it's hard to piece together.”
Speaker
Ivan Zhao
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

17 / prediction

The market could shift again. So understand this trend, I think, helpful to see should you build a vertical solution or should you build horizontal solution because it does different things.

“The market could shift again. So understand this trend, I think, helpful to see should you build a vertical solution or should you build horizontal solution because it does different things.”
Speaker
Ivan Zhao
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

18 / evaluation

I think going back to the abstraction system way of problem solving, I think we're lucky that me and Simon and Akshay, we have the skillset you probably can run a whole company, which is a couple of us, I can design, I can do marketing, storytelling, close sales deals.

“I think going back to the abstraction system way of problem solving, I think we're lucky that me and Simon and Akshay, we have the skillset you probably can run a whole company, which is a couple of us, I can design, I can do marketing, storytelling, close sales deals.”
Speaker
Ivan Zhao
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

19 / preference

The one reason I try not to do podcasts and all those things, oh, it's actually it drains energy in a different ways. I prefer just building product and brainstorm sessions.

“The one reason I try not to do podcasts and all those things, oh, it's actually it drains energy in a different ways. I prefer just building product and brainstorm sessions.”
Speaker
Ivan Zhao
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

20 / evaluation

I think courage is quite important because oftentimes you're working on things don't matter, but momentum just took you there.

“I think courage is quite important because oftentimes you're working on things don't matter, but momentum just took you there.”
Speaker
Ivan Zhao
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

21 / evaluation

Then it took another year to realize to build this out, but in the middle of that I realized we built on the wrong technical foundation.

“Then it took another year to realize to build this out, but in the middle of that I realized we built on the wrong technical foundation.”
Speaker
Ivan Zhao
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast
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