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Lenny's Podcast / episode intelligence

From managing people to managing AI: The leadership skills everyone needs now | Julie Zhuo (Facebook VP, Sundial CEO, The Making of a Manager author)

21 Sept 2025 27 published claims 2 attributable people

Speakers in the public record

Claim mix

belief 13preference 4recommendation 3uncertainty 2evaluation 2commitment 2prediction 1

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Every row below preserves an exact excerpt. Identified speakers are linked; unresolved voices are labeled and excluded from people counts.

Claim ledger

The useful parts, with receipts.

27 published records

01 / recommendation

Recommends Conscious Business.

“The first is Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. I absolutely love that book. It's beautifully written. It's so deep. My whole philosophy around quality is beautifully, it really comes, a lot of it comes from that book, the idea and even all the stuff that we talked about, change. What does it mean to be at that forefront of change and dynamic quality? I think he just talks about so beautifully and so masterfully in that book. So old classic, but I try to reread it every few years or so. Second is Conscious Business is my favorite management book. It's a little bit of a sleeper hit because I actually end up recommending this one far more than my own book.”
Speaker
Julie Zhuo
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

02 / recommendation

Mentions personal use of Good Inside.

“all parents but i also think it's just a wonderful book for thinking about relationships and because parenting is that it's like a very very deep and intense relationship and interaction that you have with another human being and there's so many things that i read in parenting books including good inside by dr becky that i think like are could just as well been like a management or a team leadership book”
Speaker
Julie Zhuo
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

03 / belief

Like, it will only get weirder. And I think giving people that sense of like, okay, just enjoy this normal because this is going to be only weirder will at least give people an expectation, real expectation, where things might be going.

“Like, it will only get weirder. And I think giving people that sense of like, okay, just enjoy this normal because this is going to be only weirder will at least give people an expectation, real expectation, where things might be going.”
Speaker
Lenny Rachitsky
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

04 / belief

Like I need to understand and have an opinion about what to build or what the user experience is. And so we found that if we actually make teams smaller and we kind of even like in the past, you know, pre-AI, like just to have fewer of these, it allowed everyone to be like, oh, wait, we don't have a product manager on the team.

“Like I need to understand and have an opinion about what to build or what the user experience is. And so we found that if we actually make teams smaller and we kind of even like in the past, you know, pre-AI, like just to have fewer of these, it allowed everyone to be like, oh, wait, we don't have a product manager on the team.”
Speaker
Julie Zhuo
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

05 / belief

Now, I think with better and better models, perhaps the agents get smarter so they can deal with higher and higher levels of figuring out how to do something.

“Now, I think with better and better models, perhaps the agents get smarter so they can deal with higher and higher levels of figuring out how to do something.”
Speaker
Julie Zhuo
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

06 / belief

Today, management is really about this idea of be sturdy while being flexible. So I think about this metaphor a lot of the willow tree.

“Today, management is really about this idea of be sturdy while being flexible. So I think about this metaphor a lot of the willow tree.”
Speaker
Julie Zhuo
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

07 / belief

You can shortcut like hard feelings because now you can just watch TikTok instead of actually dealing with the very difficult emotion or tension that you had with a colleague or with your partner or with your children. And AI makes it even, I think, more attractive because now there's a person who can, or there's a thing that can be very, very personalized.

“You can shortcut like hard feelings because now you can just watch TikTok instead of actually dealing with the very difficult emotion or tension that you had with a colleague or with your partner or with your children. And AI makes it even, I think, more attractive because now there's a person who can, or there's a thing that can be very, very personalized.”
Speaker
Julie Zhuo
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

08 / belief

My big motivation to write it was, I think, largely because I felt if I had to write this thing, I was likely going to become a better manager.

“My big motivation to write it was, I think, largely because I felt if I had to write this thing, I was likely going to become a better manager.”
Speaker
Julie Zhuo
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

09 / uncertainty

I don't know, classically, designers aren't the biggest fans of experiments and data and making decisions based on data.

“I don't know, classically, designers aren't the biggest fans of experiments and data and making decisions based on data.”
Speaker
Lenny Rachitsky
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

11 / belief

I was going to say exactly what you just said, which is every great designer that I've worked with was obsessed with data and the most leaning into the data versus designers that are just like, nah, I think I'm going to have a sense of what's right.

“I was going to say exactly what you just said, which is every great designer that I've worked with was obsessed with data and the most leaning into the data versus designers that are just like, nah, I think I'm going to have a sense of what's right.”
Speaker
Lenny Rachitsky
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

12 / belief

Obviously, it's hard, but it's in the mentality and the mental model, I think, makes all the difference because it's going to be different in the way that I convey it to them.

“Obviously, it's hard, but it's in the mentality and the mental model, I think, makes all the difference because it's going to be different in the way that I convey it to them.”
Speaker
Julie Zhuo
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

14 / belief

Like it can be with everyone just establishing what kind of relationship do we want to have? I think most people want to opt into a relationship where you can be close.

“Like it can be with everyone just establishing what kind of relationship do we want to have? I think most people want to opt into a relationship where you can be close.”
Speaker
Julie Zhuo
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

15 / belief

I think about things like clarity communication, just like what comes to mind when you think about like, here's the things you want to double down on as you're learning to be manager that will also help you be really good at AI tooling and working with agents.

“I think about things like clarity communication, just like what comes to mind when you think about like, here's the things you want to double down on as you're learning to be manager that will also help you be really good at AI tooling and working with agents.”
Speaker
Lenny Rachitsky
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

16 / belief

You know, it's like if my career has always been in design and now these tools are getting better and better at what I'm doing, then holy shit what happens to my career and my future and do i need to pivot do i need to learn different things and so it's this change it's this feeling of uncertainty and i think a lot of times managers have to deal with that in addition to what you were saying before which is they also have to learn these new skills which is managing AI and managing these more powerful tools in their arsenal of trying to get things done.

“You know, it's like if my career has always been in design and now these tools are getting better and better at what I'm doing, then holy shit what happens to my career and my future and do i need to pivot do i need to learn different things and so it's this change it's this feeling of uncertainty and i think a lot of times managers have to deal with that in addition to what you were saying before which is they also have to learn these new skills which is managing AI and managing these more powerful tools in their arsenal of trying to get things done.”
Speaker
Julie Zhuo
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

17 / uncertainty

One of the things I need to work on is figuring out how to be more open in person, how to speak a little bit more clearly in person, maybe say things like, I don't know exactly how I feel about it yet, but this is what I'm thinking right now.

“One of the things I need to work on is figuring out how to be more open in person, how to speak a little bit more clearly in person, maybe say things like, I don't know exactly how I feel about it yet, but this is what I'm thinking right now.”
Speaker
Julie Zhuo
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

18 / preference

Now, if that's your high level goal and you're like, I wanna be able, let's say your high level goal is I wanna be able to do this 10 hours a day because I love it and I wanna be able to support myself doing it, meaning I get paid and I have like a great job and I want to have a bunch of impact in the world by doing this thing, right?

“Now, if that's your high level goal and you're like, I wanna be able, let's say your high level goal is I wanna be able to do this 10 hours a day because I love it and I wanna be able to support myself doing it, meaning I get paid and I have like a great job and I want to have a bunch of impact in the world by doing this thing, right?”
Speaker
Julie Zhuo
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

19 / preference

Second is Conscious Business is my favorite management book. It's a little bit of a sleeper hit because I actually end up recommending this one far more than my own book.

“Second is Conscious Business is my favorite management book. It's a little bit of a sleeper hit because I actually end up recommending this one far more than my own book.”
Speaker
Julie Zhuo
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

20 / evaluation

I think a lot of times when you talk about why is alignment so difficult at a big company, it often comes down to this question, which is, Different people may have different pictures of what success looks like.

“I think a lot of times when you talk about why is alignment so difficult at a big company, it often comes down to this question, which is, Different people may have different pictures of what success looks like.”
Speaker
Julie Zhuo
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

21 / evaluation

of numbers that we kind of fall into right because it's like okay we got these numbers and the numbers go up it's like no the fact that you still have to choose which things you look at is an art not a science and your interpretation of if the number went up five percent is that good is that not good is also an interpretation and is an is an art not a science it's just that sometimes i think we can give ourselves this feeling.

“of numbers that we kind of fall into right because it's like okay we got these numbers and the numbers go up it's like no the fact that you still have to choose which things you look at is an art not a science and your interpretation of if the number went up five percent is that good is that not good is also an interpretation and is an is an art not a science it's just that sometimes i think we can give ourselves this feeling.”
Speaker
Julie Zhuo
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

22 / prediction

ng at sessions or sessions per day or time spent on mobile or you know kind of length of sessions became something that was important for us to understand are people getting value in this new medium i think that's the same with what we have today conversational analytics is totally different used to be let's say in the google world right i knew you were interested in shopping if you click the shopping tab i know you're interested in maps if you click the maps tab we can measure clicks Today, it's just all conversation.

“ng at sessions or sessions per day or time spent on mobile or you know kind of length of sessions became something that was important for us to understand are people getting value in this new medium i think that's the same with what we have today conversational analytics is totally different used to be let's say in the google world right i knew you were interested in shopping if you click the shopping tab i know you're interested in maps if you click the maps tab we can measure clicks Today, it's just all conversation.”
Speaker
Julie Zhuo
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

23 / commitment

We're going to have some chaos. This is going to happen, but we will work through it because we're going to be flexible and we're going to be able to put our eyes on the big picture of what is possible, which is exciting.

“We're going to have some chaos. This is going to happen, but we will work through it because we're going to be flexible and we're going to be able to put our eyes on the big picture of what is possible, which is exciting.”
Speaker
Julie Zhuo
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

24 / preference

Like sometimes what I'll do is I'll find a curriculum online and And if you like take a course, it'll be like this, whatever, 12 week curriculum and I'll just feed it into ChatGPT and I'll say, help me customize a program for me, using the ways that I like to learn.

“Like sometimes what I'll do is I'll find a curriculum online and And if you like take a course, it'll be like this, whatever, 12 week curriculum and I'll just feed it into ChatGPT and I'll say, help me customize a program for me, using the ways that I like to learn.”
Speaker
Julie Zhuo
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

25 / recommendation

decide whether you want to do it or not and if you want to then ask your manager for help okay if you see opportunities that are going to help me become a better presenter or increase my communication please tell me even better if you have feedback for me about communication i want to hear it because that's what's going to help me grow in this particular skill And so it becomes this collaborative relationship much more so than this almost like adversarial, like I'm trying to get you to give me a promotion and you're trying to get me to like work harder.

“decide whether you want to do it or not and if you want to then ask your manager for help okay if you see opportunities that are going to help me become a better presenter or increase my communication please tell me even better if you have feedback for me about communication i want to hear it because that's what's going to help me grow in this particular skill And so it becomes this collaborative relationship much more so than this almost like adversarial, like I'm trying to get you to give me a promotion and you're trying to get me to like work harder.”
Speaker
Julie Zhuo
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

26 / commitment

parody he loves video games so minecraft but what he often listens to on his alexa are these parody songs so it'll be like justin bieber's hit or like gundam style but they've changed the lyrics so it becomes like a video game parody of some video game that he's playing and they're horribly sung you know they're like off tune it's just like some person who produced it and i was like well if he doesn't seem to mind off key scene i'm going to create him an album of video game parody songs. And I'm going to create like an, so I created an app on Replit that, that what, and what it does is it, you just give it a song.

“parody he loves video games so minecraft but what he often listens to on his alexa are these parody songs so it'll be like justin bieber's hit or like gundam style but they've changed the lyrics so it becomes like a video game parody of some video game that he's playing and they're horribly sung you know they're like off tune it's just like some person who produced it and i was like well if he doesn't seem to mind off key scene i'm going to create him an album of video game parody songs. And I'm going to create like an, so I created an app on Replit that, that what, and what it does is it, you just give it a song.”
Speaker
Julie Zhuo
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

27 / preference

As a designer is like, if I could just know what everyone is thinking and feeling every time they used it, my life would be a lot easier because then I would be able to build better and better things.

“As a designer is like, if I could just know what everyone is thinking and feeling every time they used it, my life would be a lot easier because then I would be able to build better and better things.”
Speaker
Julie Zhuo
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast
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