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Lenny's Podcast / episode intelligence

He saved OpenAI, invented the “Like” button, and built Google Maps: Bret Taylor on the future of careers, coding, agents, and more

31 Jul 2025 25 published claims 2 attributable people

Speakers in the public record

Claim mix

belief 12preference 4evaluation 4uncertainty 2prediction 2recommendation 1

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The useful parts, with receipts.

25 published records

01 / recommendation

Recommends Competing Against Luck. Recommends Endurance.

“I don't read a lot of nonfiction, but probably if I had to pick one in the area of the topics we talked about, Competing Against Luck, which was the book that produced Jobs to be Done, which is a framework I really believe in. My only critique is I think most of these business books should be like an article. So maybe buy the book and punch it into ChatGPT and get the summary. But buy the book it's Clayton Christensen talked about it, but it's a really good framework for thinking about delivering value with your products. And I think it definitely influenced me. Actually one book I do recommend is Endurance, which is the story of Shackleton's trip to go to the South Pole. Half the book is him starving to death and eating seal meat with his crew of people frozen in their boat. I've never seen a better story of grit in my entire life. It's remarkable that it's a true story and if you're an entrepreneur going through a hard time, read that, you'd be like, okay, it could be worse. It's a great book too. It's just remarkable that it's a true story.”
Speaker
Bret Taylor
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

02 / belief

I don't think mobile phones are great in school or great for kids and I personally advocate for waiting a long time. But I think that ChatGPT is more like Google search and it's one thing to have a device in your pocket that's addictive and has push notifications, but it's another thing to use AI to learn.

“I don't think mobile phones are great in school or great for kids and I personally advocate for waiting a long time. But I think that ChatGPT is more like Google search and it's one thing to have a device in your pocket that's addictive and has push notifications, but it's another thing to use AI to learn.”
Speaker
Bret Taylor
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

03 / belief

I do still think studying computer science is a different answer than learning to code, but I would say I still think it's extremely valuable to study computer science. I say that because I think computer science is more than coding.

“I do still think studying computer science is a different answer than learning to code, but I would say I still think it's extremely valuable to study computer science. I say that because I think computer science is more than coding.”
Speaker
Bret Taylor
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

04 / uncertainty

There was a recent study actually, I don't know if you saw, where they showed engineers were less productive with AI because it was just putting them in different directions.

“There was a recent study actually, I don't know if you saw, where they showed engineers were less productive with AI because it was just putting them in different directions.”
Speaker
Lenny Rachitsky
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

05 / belief

I think a lot companies use that, which is great, that motion produces great products, but if PLG means that you aren't actually engaging with the buyer of your software, you're not going to grow. And so, I've actually seen more recently, with a lot of AI companies, direct sales come a little bit more back into fashion because I think so many of the opportunities in AI actually meet that qualification where the buyer and the user are not necessarily the same person and it really requires that go-to-market motion.

“I think a lot companies use that, which is great, that motion produces great products, but if PLG means that you aren't actually engaging with the buyer of your software, you're not going to grow. And so, I've actually seen more recently, with a lot of AI companies, direct sales come a little bit more back into fashion because I think so many of the opportunities in AI actually meet that qualification where the buyer and the user are not necessarily the same person and it really requires that go-to-market motion.”
Speaker
Bret Taylor
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

06 / belief

All of the companies that were startups that tried to do this have already been consolidated or almost all of them, inflection, adapt, character and others. And I think there doesn't appear to be a viable business model for a startup because of the amount of CapEx required and there's just not enough fundraising runway to get to escape velocity.

“All of the companies that were startups that tried to do this have already been consolidated or almost all of them, inflection, adapt, character and others. And I think there doesn't appear to be a viable business model for a startup because of the amount of CapEx required and there's just not enough fundraising runway to get to escape velocity.”
Speaker
Bret Taylor
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

08 / belief

If you want to go from a 65% automated resolution rate to 75%, we have a billion tools to let AI help you do that, identify opportunities for improvement, figure out why people are frustrated, what new capabilities can we add to our agent to improve the resolution rate? And you let AI put the needles at the top of the haystack on your behalf and I think that's really the way to optimize these systems.

“If you want to go from a 65% automated resolution rate to 75%, we have a billion tools to let AI help you do that, identify opportunities for improvement, figure out why people are frustrated, what new capabilities can we add to our agent to improve the resolution rate? And you let AI put the needles at the top of the haystack on your behalf and I think that's really the way to optimize these systems.”
Speaker
Bret Taylor
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

09 / belief

I think agents will truly start to bend the curve again like we did in the very early days of computing because software is going from helping an individual be slightly more productive to actually accomplishing a job autonomously.

“I think agents will truly start to bend the curve again like we did in the very early days of computing because software is going from helping an individual be slightly more productive to actually accomplishing a job autonomously.”
Speaker
Bret Taylor
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

10 / belief

I think there's a huge difference between outcomes-based pricing and usage based pricing because especially in AI, they're not necessarily even correlated and you could have a long phone call and not solve the customer's problem and they give you a negative review online and call the call center again, all that effort was for nothing.

“I think there's a huge difference between outcomes-based pricing and usage based pricing because especially in AI, they're not necessarily even correlated and you could have a long phone call and not solve the customer's problem and they give you a negative review online and call the call center again, all that effort was for nothing.”
Speaker
Bret Taylor
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

12 / belief

I was looking at a website for the top 50 software companies in the stock market and obviously, the top five are the big, big boom ones like Microsoft, Amazon, Google, all that, but the next 50 are all SaaS companies and some of them are very exciting, some of them are super boring, but this is how the software market has evolved and I think we're going to see something similar with agents.

“I was looking at a website for the top 50 software companies in the stock market and obviously, the top five are the big, big boom ones like Microsoft, Amazon, Google, all that, but the next 50 are all SaaS companies and some of them are very exciting, some of them are super boring, but this is how the software market has evolved and I think we're going to see something similar with agents.”
Speaker
Bret Taylor
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

13 / uncertainty

I have a two-year-old and it feels like there's a new milestone of, there's like when to give them a phone, when to give them, I don't know, Snapchat, whatever kids use these days and then it's like when to give them their first ChatGPT account.

“I have a two-year-old and it feels like there's a new milestone of, there's like when to give them a phone, when to give them, I don't know, Snapchat, whatever kids use these days and then it's like when to give them their first ChatGPT account.”
Speaker
Lenny Rachitsky
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

14 / belief

I'm probably out of my depth here, but it's essentially MCP because that's how you provide context to Cursor. And I think that almost always when you have a model making a poor decision, if it's a good model, it's lack of context.

“I'm probably out of my depth here, but it's essentially MCP because that's how you provide context to Cursor. And I think that almost always when you have a model making a poor decision, if it's a good model, it's lack of context.”
Speaker
Bret Taylor
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

16 / preference

I don't know if I could have figured out how to reach out to Ashton Kutcher [inaudible 00:27:28], it's not he's on my Rolodex.

“I don't know if I could have figured out how to reach out to Ashton Kutcher [inaudible 00:27:28], it's not he's on my Rolodex.”
Speaker
Bret Taylor
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

17 / preference

I have become much more receptive to doing things that I previously would've said aren't my favorite things to do because I derive so much joy from having an impact that I enjoy a lot more things now.

“I have become much more receptive to doing things that I previously would've said aren't my favorite things to do because I derive so much joy from having an impact that I enjoy a lot more things now.”
Speaker
Bret Taylor
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

18 / prediction

I think the whole market is going to go towards outcomes-based pricing, not because it's the only way, but the market is going to pull everyone there because it's just so obviously the correct way to build and sell software.

“I think the whole market is going to go towards outcomes-based pricing, not because it's the only way, but the market is going to pull everyone there because it's just so obviously the correct way to build and sell software.”
Speaker
Bret Taylor
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

19 / evaluation

This works if your product is a platform product. It doesn't work, for example, if your product is trying to help a line of business because lines of business typically don't have dedicated engineering teams or let alone, the latitude to just go download a new library or start using a web service like that.

“This works if your product is a platform product. It doesn't work, for example, if your product is trying to help a line of business because lines of business typically don't have dedicated engineering teams or let alone, the latitude to just go download a new library or start using a web service like that.”
Speaker
Bret Taylor
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

20 / evaluation

We ended up integrating mapping local search, driving directions, like all of these products at the time were actually separate product categories and ended up with something that redefined the industry and certainly my career. But it took, I think for me as a product leader, it changed the way I think about product just because there's feature and functionality and then there's like why should I use this thing in the first place?

“We ended up integrating mapping local search, driving directions, like all of these products at the time were actually separate product categories and ended up with something that redefined the industry and certainly my career. But it took, I think for me as a product leader, it changed the way I think about product just because there's feature and functionality and then there's like why should I use this thing in the first place?”
Speaker
Bret Taylor
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

21 / prediction

I think we need more things like that because if an AI is generating this code, by definition, if you have to read every line that is going to be the limiting factor for producing the code or worse, you're just not going to read every line and you're going to emit a bunch of unsafe unverified code into the wild.

“I think we need more things like that because if an AI is generating this code, by definition, if you have to read every line that is going to be the limiting factor for producing the code or worse, you're just not going to read every line and you're going to emit a bunch of unsafe unverified code into the wild.”
Speaker
Bret Taylor
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

22 / evaluation

We launched the first version of that product that I was the product manager for, was called Google Local and it was, I'll be a little bit more critical now than I might've been at the time, but it was a little bit of a me too version of Yahoo Yellow Pages, essentially grafting on Yellow Pages search on top of Google Search and with a properly crafted query you could see those listings at the top of your search results but a standalone site at local.

“We launched the first version of that product that I was the product manager for, was called Google Local and it was, I'll be a little bit more critical now than I might've been at the time, but it was a little bit of a me too version of Yahoo Yellow Pages, essentially grafting on Yellow Pages search on top of Google Search and with a properly crafted query you could see those listings at the top of your search results but a standalone site at local.”
Speaker
Bret Taylor
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

23 / evaluation

How do you teach kids differently? It's really hard for teachers right now because I think we haven't gone through the transition of adding calculators to the exams.

“How do you teach kids differently? It's really hard for teachers right now because I think we haven't gone through the transition of adding calculators to the exams.”
Speaker
Bret Taylor
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

25 / preference

I probably would self-describe as an engineer, but more broadly I think of myself as a builder and I like to build products and I think companies are one of the most effective ways to build products.

“I probably would self-describe as an engineer, but more broadly I think of myself as a builder and I like to build products and I think companies are one of the most effective ways to build products.”
Speaker
Bret Taylor
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast
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