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Lenny's Podcast / episode intelligence

Why great AI products are all about the data | Shaun Clowes (CPO Confluent, ex-Salesforce, Atlassian)

29 Dec 2024 20 published claims 2 attributable people

Speakers in the public record

Claim mix

evaluation 7belief 6recommendation 4preference 2observation 1

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20 published records

01 / recommendation

Recommends The Lean Startup. Recommends INSPIRED: How to build products that people love.

“Yeah, they oldies but goodies, is probably going to be The Lean Startup that I still find actually really good. And the key lessons in there I still think are very applicable to a lot of people, particularly the cohort analysis bit, which for some reason I still don't see people do anywhere near enough cohort analysis. So there you go, that's my little tip. And then INSPIRED: How to build products that people love by Marty Kagan and the Silicon Valley product group. That's an oldie but a goodie. I think it's got a lot of the key lessons of product management in it, even though it's been around for a long time.”
Speaker
Shaun Clowes
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

03 / observation

The only way I could really believe it is if you said, "Well, you could have a new startup that introspected all of the rules that are configured into a Salesforce to try and reverse engineer what your actual business processes are and then kind of operate on top of that.

“The only way I could really believe it is if you said, "Well, you could have a new startup that introspected all of the rules that are configured into a Salesforce to try and reverse engineer what your actual business processes are and then kind of operate on top of that.”
Speaker
Shaun Clowes
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

04 / belief

I think people really underestimate where the value is created in these applications and they just kind of get it completely wrong, and I'm not sure why that is.

“I think people really underestimate where the value is created in these applications and they just kind of get it completely wrong, and I'm not sure why that is.”
Speaker
Shaun Clowes
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

07 / belief

Maybe a couple of different things that I think are sometimes well understood, but just repeating them I guess because they're very valuable to me.

“Maybe a couple of different things that I think are sometimes well understood, but just repeating them I guess because they're very valuable to me.”
Speaker
Shaun Clowes
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

08 / belief

Got it. This point you made about how a lot of times experiments show positive and then they end up not being anything, I had the head of growth from Shopify on the podcast, and they do this really cool thing where they keep holdouts for years of cohorts and then it auto emails them I think a year or two later, "Hey, check this and see if these cohorts, this is still higher or not.

“Got it. This point you made about how a lot of times experiments show positive and then they end up not being anything, I had the head of growth from Shopify on the podcast, and they do this really cool thing where they keep holdouts for years of cohorts and then it auto emails them I think a year or two later, "Hey, check this and see if these cohorts, this is still higher or not.”
Speaker
Lenny Rachitsky
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

11 / evaluation

" Because certainly at some point it isn't just about the money and at the end of the day product management is so damn fun because it's about trying to figure out an edge. It's like trying to look at the world, find the portion of the chessboard that isn't occupied, but that is valuable and find a way to get into it, invade it and destroy it.

“" Because certainly at some point it isn't just about the money and at the end of the day product management is so damn fun because it's about trying to figure out an edge. It's like trying to look at the world, find the portion of the chessboard that isn't occupied, but that is valuable and find a way to get into it, invade it and destroy it.”
Speaker
Shaun Clowes
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

12 / recommendation

LLMs let you get to that really, really, really quickly in a very structured way, but only if you push at the edges, provoke the answers you don't want to hear, provoke the problems, try and prove to yourself that you are wrong, I think is the easiest way to start trying to use some of these tools.

“LLMs let you get to that really, really, really quickly in a very structured way, but only if you push at the edges, provoke the answers you don't want to hear, provoke the problems, try and prove to yourself that you are wrong, I think is the easiest way to start trying to use some of these tools.”
Speaker
Shaun Clowes
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

13 / recommendation

The job is not about execution or anything, it's about finding reliable, differentiated value that you can uniquely deliver into the market. So I would say if there's one thing, two things I would say actually that I generally guide product managers to do, one is to always start from the point of view outside the building in every document in everything, always talk from the customer's perspective, from the market's perspective, from the competitor's perspective, and the people who listen to me on that I would say get better almost immediately because they're starting from a place that's easier to understand and then secondarily be data informed.

“The job is not about execution or anything, it's about finding reliable, differentiated value that you can uniquely deliver into the market. So I would say if there's one thing, two things I would say actually that I generally guide product managers to do, one is to always start from the point of view outside the building in every document in everything, always talk from the customer's perspective, from the market's perspective, from the competitor's perspective, and the people who listen to me on that I would say get better almost immediately because they're starting from a place that's easier to understand and then secondarily be data informed.”
Speaker
Shaun Clowes
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

14 / preference

No, mostly I find that the straight-up LLMs themselves are good enough and we do have some internal tooling that we built around, I don't know if you've ever had Sachin Rekhi on the show, you may have.

“No, mostly I find that the straight-up LLMs themselves are good enough and we do have some internal tooling that we built around, I don't know if you've ever had Sachin Rekhi on the show, you may have.”
Speaker
Shaun Clowes
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

16 / evaluation

Because you just basically you're reading back what you want to hear or some weird summarized version of what you want to hear. But stepping back from all of that, what I like to do specifically getting to LLMs is I think that we live in just the most amazing time for product managers right now in terms of being able to analyze vast quantities of information and see the common threads.

“Because you just basically you're reading back what you want to hear or some weird summarized version of what you want to hear. But stepping back from all of that, what I like to do specifically getting to LLMs is I think that we live in just the most amazing time for product managers right now in terms of being able to analyze vast quantities of information and see the common threads.”
Speaker
Shaun Clowes
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

17 / preference

I used to very much about technical correctness and what computers were capable of, and technical righteousness, the right answer rather than there is only one right answer and whatever.

“I used to very much about technical correctness and what computers were capable of, and technical righteousness, the right answer rather than there is only one right answer and whatever.”
Speaker
Shaun Clowes
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

18 / evaluation

I can't describe how good it is. And I don't say this lightly because I think search, like business search is probably one of the hardest problems in computing.

“I can't describe how good it is. And I don't say this lightly because I think search, like business search is probably one of the hardest problems in computing.”
Speaker
Shaun Clowes
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

19 / evaluation

It had been in market for two years, and we found ourselves with a customer who wanted to pay millions of dollars for it. They were ready to sign on the dotted line, and that was actually the moment we decided to kill the product because we were like, "If this person signs this piece of paper, we are stuck with this forever.

“It had been in market for two years, and we found ourselves with a customer who wanted to pay millions of dollars for it. They were ready to sign on the dotted line, and that was actually the moment we decided to kill the product because we were like, "If this person signs this piece of paper, we are stuck with this forever.”
Speaker
Shaun Clowes
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast
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