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Lenny's Podcast / episode intelligence

First interview with Scale AI’s CEO: $14B Meta deal, what’s working in enterprise AI, and what frontier labs are building next | Jason Droege

9 Oct 2025 25 published claims 2 attributable people
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Speakers in the public record

Jason DroegeLenny Rachitsky

Claim mix

belief 8recommendation 5evaluation 3uncertainty 3prediction 3preference 2commitment 1

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Every row below preserves an exact excerpt. Identified speakers are linked; unresolved voices are labeled and excluded from people counts.

Claim ledger

The useful parts, with receipts.

25 published records

03 / evaluation

There's this MIT study that just showed that there's all these pilots that people are excited about and then they don't work and companies aren't adopting these tools.

“There's this MIT study that just showed that there's all these pilots that people are excited about and then they don't work and companies aren't adopting these tools.”
Speaker
Lenny Rachitsky
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

05 / belief

I think about when you say this, I did an interview with the founders of Perplexity a few years ago asking about how they work at Perplexity, and the founders said that before, they were ruled, before they ask a question of anyone on the team, they have to ask AI first.

“I think about when you say this, I did an interview with the founders of Perplexity a few years ago asking about how they work at Perplexity, and the founders said that before, they were ruled, before they ask a question of anyone on the team, they have to ask AI first.”
Speaker
Lenny Rachitsky
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

06 / belief

I mean, I think the really important, the reason why I'm doing this, the reason why want to spend time here outside of wanting to be on the show for a while and being a long-term listener is, our long-time listener, excuse me, is there's a lot of amazing work going on at Scale.

“I mean, I think the really important, the reason why I'm doing this, the reason why want to spend time here outside of wanting to be on the show for a while and being a long-term listener is, our long-time listener, excuse me, is there's a lot of amazing work going on at Scale.”
Speaker
Jason Droege
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

07 / uncertainty

Where can folks find you online if they want to maybe reach out, learn more about what you're, I don't know, maybe join Scale.

“Where can folks find you online if they want to maybe reach out, learn more about what you're, I don't know, maybe join Scale.”
Speaker
Lenny Rachitsky
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

08 / belief

Am I going to make money tomorrow? So the urgency, I think the biggest thing people miss when they're building new products is the urgency of the buyer part of it.

“Am I going to make money tomorrow? So the urgency, I think the biggest thing people miss when they're building new products is the urgency of the buyer part of it.”
Speaker
Jason Droege
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

09 / belief

Despite my original story, it's the family treat in the house. I would say that that's probably the top thing that we order.

“Despite my original story, it's the family treat in the house. I would say that that's probably the top thing that we order.”
Speaker
Jason Droege
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

10 / belief

Yeah, I think that's the story he would be referencing. And then, the onboarding of it was crazy because we basically went global with them in six months, and at this point the business was less than two years old.

“Yeah, I think that's the story he would be referencing. And then, the onboarding of it was crazy because we basically went global with them in six months, and at this point the business was less than two years old.”
Speaker
Jason Droege
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

11 / belief

We have the AGI, everything is just going to become AGI, and then there's the skeptics, which is like, "Hey, this is all bunk, this is a bubble, et cetera." And of course, my view is most things are kind of like there's truth in between and some of the extreme parts of the extreme probably correct, but the reality is is that it's very hard to get machine critical use cases in agentic systems where agents are talking to agents to a level of accuracy that is necessary to accomplish a goal.

“We have the AGI, everything is just going to become AGI, and then there's the skeptics, which is like, "Hey, this is all bunk, this is a bubble, et cetera." And of course, my view is most things are kind of like there's truth in between and some of the extreme parts of the extreme probably correct, but the reality is is that it's very hard to get machine critical use cases in agentic systems where agents are talking to agents to a level of accuracy that is necessary to accomplish a goal.”
Speaker
Jason Droege
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

12 / belief

As I was researching your background and prepping for this podcast, I learned a really interesting fun fact about you that I don't think a lot of people know.

“As I was researching your background and prepping for this podcast, I learned a really interesting fun fact about you that I don't think a lot of people know.”
Speaker
Lenny Rachitsky
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

13 / uncertainty

What's crazy about that book, you look at all the companies they talk about, I haven't read in a while, but just the whole book is about companies that last, I believe, or maybe that's the other book, I don't know.

“What's crazy about that book, you look at all the companies they talk about, I haven't read in a while, but just the whole book is about companies that last, I believe, or maybe that's the other book, I don't know.”
Speaker
Lenny Rachitsky
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

14 / belief

I mean, that sounds like almost daft to say at this point in the market, but if you were to go back three years and think about that from a technological standpoint, a lot of things that we think are trivial now are very sophisticated, and it's a combination of, I mean, the real answer is it's a combination of computational power, model improvement, and data, and all three are getting better at once.

“I mean, that sounds like almost daft to say at this point in the market, but if you were to go back three years and think about that from a technological standpoint, a lot of things that we think are trivial now are very sophisticated, and it's a combination of, I mean, the real answer is it's a combination of computational power, model improvement, and data, and all three are getting better at once.”
Speaker
Jason Droege
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

15 / commitment

I mean, more practically we will order mixed greens or tender greens or something like that on a day-to-day basis, but I think that the more notable, surprising thing is is that despite my initial aversion to working with a global chain, it's a good treat once in a while.

“I mean, more practically we will order mixed greens or tender greens or something like that on a day-to-day basis, but I think that the more notable, surprising thing is is that despite my initial aversion to working with a global chain, it's a good treat once in a while.”
Speaker
Jason Droege
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

16 / recommendation

Look, if you want to give yourself the best chance, and this isn't always how it works, but if you're in my position 25 plus years in their career, if you want to give yourself the best chance, I think there's two ways that companies end up working out.

“Look, if you want to give yourself the best chance, and this isn't always how it works, but if you're in my position 25 plus years in their career, if you want to give yourself the best chance, I think there's two ways that companies end up working out.”
Speaker
Jason Droege
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

17 / prediction

To make this tool better and better, you get to a certain limit with the models off the shelf, and actually the people inside of this healthcare system have to do their own labeling. So we talk about labeling for model builders, but we are starting to see the labeling move into enterprises and into governments because you can only get so far with off the shelf plus rag plus some fine-tuning based on recorded data.

“To make this tool better and better, you get to a certain limit with the models off the shelf, and actually the people inside of this healthcare system have to do their own labeling. So we talk about labeling for model builders, but we are starting to see the labeling move into enterprises and into governments because you can only get so far with off the shelf plus rag plus some fine-tuning based on recorded data.”
Speaker
Jason Droege
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

18 / recommendation

You see this with researchers, because the market's moving so fast, you don't have time to train up some people, so you actually have to go find people either who have the right relationships with customers that you want to get or you have to, who might not check other boxes but are awesome at that, might not check the classic boxes that I think you're referencing of they're a problem solver, they can grow with the company, they have a high trajectory, et cetera.

“You see this with researchers, because the market's moving so fast, you don't have time to train up some people, so you actually have to go find people either who have the right relationships with customers that you want to get or you have to, who might not check other boxes but are awesome at that, might not check the classic boxes that I think you're referencing of they're a problem solver, they can grow with the company, they have a high trajectory, et cetera.”
Speaker
Jason Droege
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

19 / evaluation

You might have a 70% gross margin now because the next question is why can't someone else do this? And if you have an answer of like, "Well, they can now, but they can't in two years, if we run really fast.

“You might have a 70% gross margin now because the next question is why can't someone else do this? And if you have an answer of like, "Well, they can now, but they can't in two years, if we run really fast.”
Speaker
Jason Droege
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

20 / preference

I think the way that I look at it that might be additive to the discussion is I look at the underlying incentives of the customer.

“I think the way that I look at it that might be additive to the discussion is I look at the underlying incentives of the customer.”
Speaker
Jason Droege
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

21 / evaluation

And so, what I did is I'm like, I was a golfer and frankly, there was nothing to do in tech. So I started selling golf clubs on the internet and I was making real money and I might've learned more from this business than any other because I started on eBay and I was 22, and I didn't really understand that my margins would come down because anyone can do this, but I was one of the first ones to do it, so I was making a ton of money and then I built this business and then I just failed to recognize I had a lot of hubris.

“And so, what I did is I'm like, I was a golfer and frankly, there was nothing to do in tech. So I started selling golf clubs on the internet and I was making real money and I might've learned more from this business than any other because I started on eBay and I was 22, and I didn't really understand that my margins would come down because anyone can do this, but I was one of the first ones to do it, so I was making a ton of money and then I built this business and then I just failed to recognize I had a lot of hubris.”
Speaker
Jason Droege
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

22 / preference

And so, I keep a very, very wide aperture on ideas for as long as I can until I'm like, okay, everything is coalescing. And I think there's a bunch of reasons why you have to keep an open aperture on considering ideas that might seem bad at the start, but you just keep digging and see if you're right that they're bad or you're wrong.

“And so, I keep a very, very wide aperture on ideas for as long as I can until I'm like, okay, everything is coalescing. And I think there's a bunch of reasons why you have to keep an open aperture on considering ideas that might seem bad at the start, but you just keep digging and see if you're right that they're bad or you're wrong.”
Speaker
Jason Droege
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

23 / recommendation

And then, I think in business, I think Good to Great. It's not the read that you're going to be most excited to enjoy on a vacation, but it's pretty much right, and I think we should take advice from people who have analyzed these business problems before because not a lot's changed, but we keep acting like everything's changed.

“And then, I think in business, I think Good to Great. It's not the read that you're going to be most excited to enjoy on a vacation, but it's pretty much right, and I think we should take advice from people who have analyzed these business problems before because not a lot's changed, but we keep acting like everything's changed.”
Speaker
Jason Droege
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

24 / prediction

You can go from being a dog to being a hero in a very short period of time, but you're on this very, very long journey, but you have to survive for that condition to be met. And so, then the question is is when you're in a hype cycle, I would argue that we are right now, everyone wants to go for it and then go for it more and then go for it more and go for it more and you don't realize, guys, all of our customers are going to be around in five years.

“You can go from being a dog to being a hero in a very short period of time, but you're on this very, very long journey, but you have to survive for that condition to be met. And so, then the question is is when you're in a hype cycle, I would argue that we are right now, everyone wants to go for it and then go for it more and then go for it more and go for it more and you don't realize, guys, all of our customers are going to be around in five years.”
Speaker
Jason Droege
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast

25 / prediction

And then you're like, "Oh, okay." And sometimes it's like, we'll just make it up with volume and then the gross margin will go negative for a while and you're like, "Wait, this doesn't work.

“And then you're like, "Oh, okay." And sometimes it's like, we'll just make it up with volume and then the gross margin will go negative for a while and you're like, "Wait, this doesn't work.”
Speaker
Jason Droege
Publisher
Lenny's Podcast
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