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Machine Learning Street Talk / episode intelligence

He Co-Invented the Transformer. Now: Continuous Thought Machines - Llion Jones and Luke Darlow [Sakana AI]

23 Nov 2025 18 published claims 3 attributable people
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Speakers in the public record

Tim ScarfeLlion JonesLuke Darlow

Claim mix

belief 8evaluation 5preference 2commitment 1observation 1disagreement 1

Evidence policy

Every row below preserves an exact excerpt. Identified speakers are linked; unresolved voices are labeled and excluded from people counts.

Claim ledger

The useful parts, with receipts.

18 published records

02 / belief

If we learned it constructively, so we, you know, you speak about this in your paper, this complexification, the abstract building blocks, and you can do adaptive computation.

“If we learned it constructively, so we, you know, you speak about this in your paper, this complexification, the abstract building blocks, and you can do adaptive computation.”
Speaker
Tim Scarfe
Publisher
Machine Learning Street Talk

03 / belief

I think things that are very interesting will come out of this, and I think we've already seen plenty of interesting things coming out of this.

“I think things that are very interesting will come out of this, and I think we've already seen plenty of interesting things coming out of this.”
Speaker
Llion Jones
Publisher
Machine Learning Street Talk

04 / belief

I I did a lot of the work, but we also had a lot of people in different areas and doing different parts of it that I think an 8 month life cycle for a paper seems a bit long for AI research at the moment.

“I I did a lot of the work, but we also had a lot of people in different areas and doing different parts of it that I think an 8 month life cycle for a paper seems a bit long for AI research at the moment.”
Speaker
Luke Darlow
Publisher
Machine Learning Street Talk

05 / belief

Like, this is their job. And what was perfect, I realized, is they tell you in agonizing detail exactly what reasoning they're used to solve those particular puzzles.

“Like, this is their job. And what was perfect, I realized, is they tell you in agonizing detail exactly what reasoning they're used to solve those particular puzzles.”
Speaker
Llion Jones
Publisher
Machine Learning Street Talk

07 / belief

I think a lot of the really fascinating work in the last few years that I found fascinating in the literature of language models has been related to what 1 can actually call a new scaling dimension.

“I think a lot of the really fascinating work in the last few years that I found fascinating in the literature of language models has been related to what 1 can actually call a new scaling dimension.”
Speaker
Luke Darlow
Publisher
Machine Learning Street Talk

09 / evaluation

The atmosphere in AI research was actually quite different back during the Transformer years, because it doesn't feel like something similar could actually happen right now because of the reduced amount of freedom that we have.

“The atmosphere in AI research was actually quite different back during the Transformer years, because it doesn't feel like something similar could actually happen right now because of the reduced amount of freedom that we have.”
Speaker
Llion Jones
Publisher
Machine Learning Street Talk

10 / evaluation

It's unfortunate that they work so well. It's unfortunate that scaling works so well, because it's too easy for people to just sweep these problems under the carpet.

“It's unfortunate that they work so well. It's unfortunate that scaling works so well, because it's too easy for people to just sweep these problems under the carpet.”
Speaker
Llion Jones
Publisher
Machine Learning Street Talk

11 / commitment

You know, there's this path dependence idea. So we need to do supervision because we have the path dependence so we can guide the generation of the language models.

“You know, there's this path dependence idea. So we need to do supervision because we have the path dependence so we can guide the generation of the language models.”
Speaker
Tim Scarfe
Publisher
Machine Learning Street Talk

12 / evaluation

Transformers where you just applied it to a new problem, and it just was so so much faster to train, and you just got such higher accuracy that you just had to move. And I think the deep the deep learning revolution was also another example of that.

“Transformers where you just applied it to a new problem, and it just was so so much faster to train, and you just got such higher accuracy that you just had to move. And I think the deep the deep learning revolution was also another example of that.”
Speaker
Llion Jones
Publisher
Machine Learning Street Talk

13 / evaluation

Yes, and on that point, I think maybe the most exciting thing about your paper is, you know, we were talking about path dependence and having this understanding which is built step by step, this process of complexification.

“Yes, and on that point, I think maybe the most exciting thing about your paper is, you know, we were talking about path dependence and having this understanding which is built step by step, this process of complexification.”
Speaker
Tim Scarfe
Publisher
Machine Learning Street Talk

14 / preference

Because we we've got a we've got a great audience of ML engineers and scientists, and I think working for Socano would be the dream job.

“Because we we've got a we've got a great audience of ML engineers and scientists, and I think working for Socano would be the dream job.”
Speaker
Tim Scarfe
Publisher
Machine Learning Street Talk

15 / observation

I think in terms of stability, what's what we found is kind of fun, this was a sentiment that we had throughout the the experiments that we ran with this paper, was it tended no matter what we tried it on, it it just kind of worked with all spreads of hyperparameters.

“I think in terms of stability, what's what we found is kind of fun, this was a sentiment that we had throughout the the experiments that we ran with this paper, was it tended no matter what we tried it on, it it just kind of worked with all spreads of hyperparameters.”
Speaker
Luke Darlow
Publisher
Machine Learning Street Talk

16 / evaluation

I think the boundary in terms of computation from a Turing machine perspective, if you wish, is really interesting because the notion of being able to write your tape, read from that tape, then write again to be in a Turing compute system, Turing complete system, is obviously an incredible idea that has completely changed the world.

“I think the boundary in terms of computation from a Turing machine perspective, if you wish, is really interesting because the notion of being able to write your tape, read from that tape, then write again to be in a Turing compute system, Turing complete system, is obviously an incredible idea that has completely changed the world.”
Speaker
Luke Darlow
Publisher
Machine Learning Street Talk

18 / preference

May I also submit that there could be an additional reason, which is, you know, I love that fractured and tangled representations paper.

“May I also submit that there could be an additional reason, which is, you know, I love that fractured and tangled representations paper.”
Speaker
Tim Scarfe
Publisher
Machine Learning Street Talk
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