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Conversations with Tyler / episode intelligence

Tom Holland on History, Christianity, and the Value of the Countryside

22 Mar 2023 24 published claims 2 attributable people
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Speakers in the public record

Tom HollandTyler Cowen

Claim mix

belief 9evaluation 7preference 5commitment 2prediction 1

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The useful parts, with receipts.

24 published records

01 / evaluation

He can do so in a way that reverberates beyond the Black churches into the White churches and secularized throughout the ’60s. It’s this great movement, I think, that — like the Spirit blowing in the wind, as it were — animates not just the civil rights movement, but all kinds of other movements as well — in due course, movements that may seem very opposed to doctrinal Christianity: feminism, gay rights, and so on.

“He can do so in a way that reverberates beyond the Black churches into the White churches and secularized throughout the ’60s. It’s this great movement, I think, that — like the Spirit blowing in the wind, as it were — animates not just the civil rights movement, but all kinds of other movements as well — in due course, movements that may seem very opposed to doctrinal Christianity: feminism, gay rights, and so on.”
Speaker
Tom Holland
Publisher
Conversations with Tyler

02 / evaluation

He was the most ahistorical figure, but the claim is — and it’s clearly believed by the people who are writing these texts, or constructing them, or stitching them together to form what today we think of as those books — for them, this is something awesome and holy, as the Quran is for Muslims.

“He was the most ahistorical figure, but the claim is — and it’s clearly believed by the people who are writing these texts, or constructing them, or stitching them together to form what today we think of as those books — for them, this is something awesome and holy, as the Quran is for Muslims.”
Speaker
Tom Holland
Publisher
Conversations with Tyler

03 / evaluation

He is heir to these traditions that go back to the 17th century and the 16th century — perspectives that are often incredibly radical, the more radical fringe of Protestants. And these are Protestants who often emigrate from England to the New World because their understanding of what the Bible teaches is seen as being too radical, too hot to handle back in England.

“He is heir to these traditions that go back to the 17th century and the 16th century — perspectives that are often incredibly radical, the more radical fringe of Protestants. And these are Protestants who often emigrate from England to the New World because their understanding of what the Bible teaches is seen as being too radical, too hot to handle back in England.”
Speaker
Tom Holland
Publisher
Conversations with Tyler

04 / belief

I think that the construction of what comes to be called the Pentateuch, the Torah, the first five books of the Bible — because they’re so foundational, because they’re so important doctrinally to a sense of Jews’ and Christians’ sense of themselves, they were the most rewritten and the most contested.

“I think that the construction of what comes to be called the Pentateuch, the Torah, the first five books of the Bible — because they’re so foundational, because they’re so important doctrinally to a sense of Jews’ and Christians’ sense of themselves, they were the most rewritten and the most contested.”
Speaker
Tom Holland
Publisher
Conversations with Tyler

05 / belief

I think that that is a treacherous question to ask because it implies that there would be a coherent line of descent from any one text that can be traced like that.

“I think that that is a treacherous question to ask because it implies that there would be a coherent line of descent from any one text that can be traced like that.”
Speaker
Tom Holland
Publisher
Conversations with Tyler

08 / belief

I think, actually, ironically, the fact that the Church emerges from this millennial period and that Christ hasn’t come or the reign of Antichrist hasn’t come — the horrors of the extraordinary wars and plagues and terrors that were seen by John in the Book of Revelation have not been manifested — it opens up, for reformers in the 11th century, an idea that the Christian people can be cleansed, can be reformed, can be brought closer to God.

“I think, actually, ironically, the fact that the Church emerges from this millennial period and that Christ hasn’t come or the reign of Antichrist hasn’t come — the horrors of the extraordinary wars and plagues and terrors that were seen by John in the Book of Revelation have not been manifested — it opens up, for reformers in the 11th century, an idea that the Christian people can be cleansed, can be reformed, can be brought closer to God.”
Speaker
Tom Holland
Publisher
Conversations with Tyler

09 / belief

I think the fact that only, say, I don’t even know if it’s 5 percent — you were quoting me, probably; I’m sure you got the figure right; I’m surprised it’s actually that high — going to church.

“I think the fact that only, say, I don’t even know if it’s 5 percent — you were quoting me, probably; I’m sure you got the figure right; I’m surprised it’s actually that high — going to church.”
Speaker
Tom Holland
Publisher
Conversations with Tyler

14 / belief

I think that Britain before the Second World War was a state in which power was devolved to Scotland, to Wales, to Northern Ireland, but also to the great cities of England as well — to Birmingham.

“I think that Britain before the Second World War was a state in which power was devolved to Scotland, to Wales, to Northern Ireland, but also to the great cities of England as well — to Birmingham.”
Speaker
Tom Holland
Publisher
Conversations with Tyler

16 / preference

[laughter] I suspect that it’s more to do with the fact that it is easy to bring home improvements into a house that’s just been built than it is to do home improvements in a house that’s 500 years old.

“[laughter] I suspect that it’s more to do with the fact that it is easy to bring home improvements into a house that’s just been built than it is to do home improvements in a house that’s 500 years old.”
Speaker
Tom Holland
Publisher
Conversations with Tyler

18 / preference

What I like in Christianity, actually, is the message of hope that it offers, the message of salvation, and the message that matter is not evil, that our human bodies and the world around us are not creations of some malign demiurge, but are created by God and therefore are good.

“What I like in Christianity, actually, is the message of hope that it offers, the message of salvation, and the message that matter is not evil, that our human bodies and the world around us are not creations of some malign demiurge, but are created by God and therefore are good.”
Speaker
Tom Holland
Publisher
Conversations with Tyler

19 / evaluation

This is what’s so influential about the Persian Empire, is that they moralized their own imperialism. This is hugely influential because when the Persian king — Darius would be the person who most potently expresses this — he says that he is the chosen one of Ahura Mazda, the great god, the good lord, and that truth and order are embodied in Ahura Mazda, and that Darius is his deputy.

“This is what’s so influential about the Persian Empire, is that they moralized their own imperialism. This is hugely influential because when the Persian king — Darius would be the person who most potently expresses this — he says that he is the chosen one of Ahura Mazda, the great god, the good lord, and that truth and order are embodied in Ahura Mazda, and that Darius is his deputy.”
Speaker
Tom Holland
Publisher
Conversations with Tyler

20 / evaluation

This has required, basically, pooling every conceivable source of information that we have: such Persian inscriptions as we do have, archeology, the insights of areas of the Persian Empire that perhaps hadn’t previously been tapped, be that Egypt or Babylonia or wherever, where again there are sources trying to put the Persian Empire as it functioned in the sixth, the fifth, the fourth centuries BC into some understanding that is true to the functioning of the empire in that period, rather than, say, sources that were written much later. This is a really, really difficult, challenging, complicated process, and it’s been one of the great feats of the field of ancient history that all these scholars haven’t, I think, achieved that.

“This has required, basically, pooling every conceivable source of information that we have: such Persian inscriptions as we do have, archeology, the insights of areas of the Persian Empire that perhaps hadn’t previously been tapped, be that Egypt or Babylonia or wherever, where again there are sources trying to put the Persian Empire as it functioned in the sixth, the fifth, the fourth centuries BC into some understanding that is true to the functioning of the empire in that period, rather than, say, sources that were written much later. This is a really, really difficult, challenging, complicated process, and it’s been one of the great feats of the field of ancient history that all these scholars haven’t, I think, achieved that.”
Speaker
Tom Holland
Publisher
Conversations with Tyler

21 / evaluation

The Gospel writers — and we don’t know that the sayings of Jesus are mediated through the Gospel writers, and the degree to which they correspond to what a historical Jesus might have said is obviously hugely contested — but insofar as we have a record of what the historical Jesus might have said in the Gospels, he seems hostile to the Jerusalem temple authorities.

“The Gospel writers — and we don’t know that the sayings of Jesus are mediated through the Gospel writers, and the degree to which they correspond to what a historical Jesus might have said is obviously hugely contested — but insofar as we have a record of what the historical Jesus might have said in the Gospels, he seems hostile to the Jerusalem temple authorities.”
Speaker
Tom Holland
Publisher
Conversations with Tyler

22 / preference

What I learned about modernity from Herodotus is that I think the quality about Herodotus that I have always loved — he’s always been my favorite writer, not just my favorite ancient writer but my favorite writer.

“What I learned about modernity from Herodotus is that I think the quality about Herodotus that I have always loved — he’s always been my favorite writer, not just my favorite ancient writer but my favorite writer.”
Speaker
Tom Holland
Publisher
Conversations with Tyler

23 / evaluation

I initially wanted to do a doctorate on him, but then I gave that up because I decided that he was just too fascinating, too charismatic, and basically too hostile to the academic, I think.

“I initially wanted to do a doctorate on him, but then I gave that up because I decided that he was just too fascinating, too charismatic, and basically too hostile to the academic, I think.”
Speaker
Tom Holland
Publisher
Conversations with Tyler

24 / prediction

A Big Dig, I would guess, is much easier to do in — I don’t know — Vegas or Houston than in Boston because Boston is just a very old city, in exactly the way that Manchester is in Britain, or Lyon or somewhere.

“A Big Dig, I would guess, is much easier to do in — I don’t know — Vegas or Houston than in Boston because Boston is just a very old city, in exactly the way that Manchester is in Britain, or Lyon or somewhere.”
Speaker
Tom Holland
Publisher
Conversations with Tyler
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