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Lex Fridman Podcast / episode intelligence

#404 – Lee Cronin: Controversial Nature Paper on Evolution of Life and Universe

9 Dec 2023 43 published claims 2 attributable people
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Speakers in the public record

Lee CroninLex Fridman

Claim mix

belief 23evaluation 4observation 4uncertainty 4commitment 3prediction 2preference 2recommendation 1

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Claim ledger

The useful parts, with receipts.

43 published records

02 / belief

I agree, but the super intelligence I want, I want to be able to have a discussion with it about coming up with fundamental new ideas that generate knowledge.

“I agree, but the super intelligence I want, I want to be able to have a discussion with it about coming up with fundamental new ideas that generate knowledge.”
Speaker
Lee Cronin
Publisher
Lex Fridman Podcast

09 / observation

I mean, this is the power of assembly theory in that regard. So if everything… So the way to look at it, if you have a box of objects, if they’re all indistinguishable, then using your technique, what you then do is you then look at the assembly index.

“I mean, this is the power of assembly theory in that regard. So if everything… So the way to look at it, if you have a box of objects, if they’re all indistinguishable, then using your technique, what you then do is you then look at the assembly index.”
Speaker
Lee Cronin
Publisher
Lex Fridman Podcast

10 / belief

Let’s make the golf ball smaller. And this is where I think that we think that we get randomness in quantum mechanics and some people say you can’t get randomness, quantum mechanic’s deterministic, but aha, this is where we realize that classical mechanics and quantum mechanics suffer from the same uncertainty principle.

“Let’s make the golf ball smaller. And this is where I think that we think that we get randomness in quantum mechanics and some people say you can’t get randomness, quantum mechanic’s deterministic, but aha, this is where we realize that classical mechanics and quantum mechanics suffer from the same uncertainty principle.”
Speaker
Lee Cronin
Publisher
Lex Fridman Podcast

13 / belief

Oh, this random set of things that shouldn’t be that looks like a true random number generator has structure as not [inaudible 02:01:32], an IT type structure, but evolutionary structure given by assembly theory,” and we start to… But I would say that because I’m a shameless assembly theorist.

“Oh, this random set of things that shouldn’t be that looks like a true random number generator has structure as not [inaudible 02:01:32], an IT type structure, but evolutionary structure given by assembly theory,” and we start to… But I would say that because I’m a shameless assembly theorist.”
Speaker
Lee Cronin
Publisher
Lex Fridman Podcast

14 / belief

I want to do experiments to formulate a theory to refine that as we go forward that might help us explain that. And I think that’s why I’m so determined to try and crack the “non-life to life” transition looking at networks and molecules, and that might help us think about the mechanism.

“I want to do experiments to formulate a theory to refine that as we go forward that might help us explain that. And I think that’s why I’m so determined to try and crack the “non-life to life” transition looking at networks and molecules, and that might help us think about the mechanism.”
Speaker
Lee Cronin
Publisher
Lex Fridman Podcast

15 / belief

I’m sure I make mistakes on that.I argue lots with Sara and she’s shocked. I’ve argued with Joscha, Joscha Bach, in the past and he is like, “You’re just making that up.

“I’m sure I make mistakes on that.I argue lots with Sara and she’s shocked. I’ve argued with Joscha, Joscha Bach, in the past and he is like, “You’re just making that up.”
Speaker
Lee Cronin
Publisher
Lex Fridman Podcast

16 / belief

I don’t just think that actually, this is a discussion I was having with Sara about that, where she was like, “Oh, I think we’ve been debating this for a long time now, about how do we reconcile novelty determinism in determinism.

“I don’t just think that actually, this is a discussion I was having with Sara about that, where she was like, “Oh, I think we’ve been debating this for a long time now, about how do we reconcile novelty determinism in determinism.”
Speaker
Lee Cronin
Publisher
Lex Fridman Podcast

17 / belief

” I would argue very virulently that that is not the case. But we can say, “Look, if you don’t like the cutoff on earth, go up higher, 30, 100, because there’s going to be a point where you can find a molecule with so many different parts, the chances of you getting a molecule that has a hundred different parts and finding a million identical copies, that’s just impossible.

“” I would argue very virulently that that is not the case. But we can say, “Look, if you don’t like the cutoff on earth, go up higher, 30, 100, because there’s going to be a point where you can find a molecule with so many different parts, the chances of you getting a molecule that has a hundred different parts and finding a million identical copies, that’s just impossible.”
Speaker
Lee Cronin
Publisher
Lex Fridman Podcast

20 / belief

The title is Assembly Theory Explains and Quantifies Selection and Evolution, very humble title. And the entirety of the paper, I think, presents interesting ideas, but reaches high.

“The title is Assembly Theory Explains and Quantifies Selection and Evolution, very humble title. And the entirety of the paper, I think, presents interesting ideas, but reaches high.”
Speaker
Lex Fridman
Publisher
Lex Fridman Podcast

22 / commitment

Even though we have completely different chemistry, literally completely different chemistry, that we will be able to pass information from one another.

“Even though we have completely different chemistry, literally completely different chemistry, that we will be able to pass information from one another.”
Speaker
Lee Cronin
Publisher
Lex Fridman Podcast

24 / uncertainty

I think the space of how much we don’t know is so vast that saying the universe is deterministic and from that jumping into there’s no free will is just too difficult of a leap.

“I think the space of how much we don’t know is so vast that saying the universe is deterministic and from that jumping into there’s no free will is just too difficult of a leap.”
Speaker
Lex Fridman
Publisher
Lex Fridman Podcast

28 / uncertainty

I always understood the copy number is really important, but I never explained it properly, for ages. And I kept having this, it goes back to this, if I give you a, I don’t know, a really complicated molecule, and I say it’s complicated, you could say, “Hey, that’s really complicated.

“I always understood the copy number is really important, but I never explained it properly, for ages. And I kept having this, it goes back to this, if I give you a, I don’t know, a really complicated molecule, and I say it’s complicated, you could say, “Hey, that’s really complicated.”
Speaker
Lee Cronin
Publisher
Lex Fridman Podcast

29 / uncertainty

What would be amazing is if you can use assembly theory, this framework to show the increase in the assembly index associated with, I don’t know, cultures or pieces of text like language or images and so on and illustrate without knowing the data ahead of time, just kind like you did with NASA that you were able to demonstrate that it applies in those other contexts.

“What would be amazing is if you can use assembly theory, this framework to show the increase in the assembly index associated with, I don’t know, cultures or pieces of text like language or images and so on and illustrate without knowing the data ahead of time, just kind like you did with NASA that you were able to demonstrate that it applies in those other contexts.”
Speaker
Lex Fridman
Publisher
Lex Fridman Podcast

31 / belief

Now if you think about how embryos develop, you go all the way back, those cells undergo differentiation on a causal way that’s biomechanically a feedback between the genetics and biomechanics. I think we can use assembly theory to apply to tissue types.

“Now if you think about how embryos develop, you go all the way back, those cells undergo differentiation on a causal way that’s biomechanically a feedback between the genetics and biomechanics. I think we can use assembly theory to apply to tissue types.”
Speaker
Lee Cronin
Publisher
Lex Fridman Podcast

35 / observation

Look, if I take the numbers between zero and 1000 and I train a model to pick out the prime numbers by giving all the prime numbers between zero and a thousand, it doesn’t know what prime number is.

“Look, if I take the numbers between zero and 1000 and I train a model to pick out the prime numbers by giving all the prime numbers between zero and a thousand, it doesn’t know what prime number is.”
Speaker
Lee Cronin
Publisher
Lex Fridman Podcast

36 / prediction

If it’s helpful, it’ll help people scaffold on it and we’ll start to converge for a new paradigm. So I think that that’s the thing that I wanted to see my colleagues, authors, collaborators and people were like, you’ve just published this paper.

“If it’s helpful, it’ll help people scaffold on it and we’ll start to converge for a new paradigm. So I think that that’s the thing that I wanted to see my colleagues, authors, collaborators and people were like, you’ve just published this paper.”
Speaker
Lee Cronin
Publisher
Lex Fridman Podcast

37 / preference

I don’t normally get emotional about papers, but it is not about giving up because we want to get it published because we want the glory or anything.

“I don’t normally get emotional about papers, but it is not about giving up because we want to get it published because we want the glory or anything.”
Speaker
Lee Cronin
Publisher
Lex Fridman Podcast

38 / evaluation

Because I was like, it’s abundant, of course. And when you then took it all out, we found that the biological samples gave you molecules that had an assembly index greater than 15.

“Because I was like, it’s abundant, of course. And when you then took it all out, we found that the biological samples gave you molecules that had an assembly index greater than 15.”
Speaker
Lee Cronin
Publisher
Lex Fridman Podcast

39 / evaluation

Whereas, some animals are lazy, they can just go eat the fungi, and they don’t need to make very much. And so, what you do is you look at the, so you take, I don’t know, the fingerprint, maybe the top number of high molecular weight molecules you find in the sample, you fragment them to get their assembly indices, and then what you can do is you can infer common origins of molecules.

“Whereas, some animals are lazy, they can just go eat the fungi, and they don’t need to make very much. And so, what you do is you look at the, so you take, I don’t know, the fingerprint, maybe the top number of high molecular weight molecules you find in the sample, you fragment them to get their assembly indices, and then what you can do is you can infer common origins of molecules.”
Speaker
Lee Cronin
Publisher
Lex Fridman Podcast

41 / evaluation

What a terrible journal.” And it really, and I watched, said to people, “Look, this is a brand new idea that’s not only potentially going to change the way we look at biology, it’s going to change the way we look at the universe.

“What a terrible journal.” And it really, and I watched, said to people, “Look, this is a brand new idea that’s not only potentially going to change the way we look at biology, it’s going to change the way we look at the universe.”
Speaker
Lee Cronin
Publisher
Lex Fridman Podcast

42 / prediction

Our causal cones are never going to overlap or not easily. And this is the thing that makes me sad about alien life, why we have to create alien life in the lab as quickly as possible because I don’t know if we are going to be able to build architectures that will intersect with alien intelligence architectures.

“Our causal cones are never going to overlap or not easily. And this is the thing that makes me sad about alien life, why we have to create alien life in the lab as quickly as possible because I don’t know if we are going to be able to build architectures that will intersect with alien intelligence architectures.”
Speaker
Lee Cronin
Publisher
Lex Fridman Podcast

43 / preference

I don’t, and I’m excited because I think selection isn’t special at all. I think what is special is the history of the environments on earth that gave rise to the first cell that now has taken all those environments and is now more autonomous.

“I don’t, and I’m excited because I think selection isn’t special at all. I think what is special is the history of the environments on earth that gave rise to the first cell that now has taken all those environments and is now more autonomous.”
Speaker
Lee Cronin
Publisher
Lex Fridman Podcast
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