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The "Normsky" architecture for AI coding agents — with Beyang Liu + Steve Yegge of SourceGraph

14 Dec 2023 38 published claims 4 attributable people

Speakers in the public record

Claim mix

belief 22evaluation 6recommendation 3commitment 3preference 2uncertainty 1prediction 1

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Every row below preserves an exact excerpt. Identified speakers are linked; unresolved voices are labeled and excluded from people counts.

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The useful parts, with receipts.

38 published records

01 / recommendation

Mentions personal use of Starcoder.

“Like we run Starcoder on top of Fireworks and that's made it so that we just don't have to think about building up an inference stack. And so that's great for us because it allows us to focus more on the kind of like data fetching, the knowledge graph and model fine tuning, which we've also invested a bit in.”
Speaker
Beyang Liu
Publisher
Latent Space

02 / belief

I mean, but that's also, like, the secret weapon, right, for any AI, you know, is the data that you've curated. So I doubt people are going to be, oh, we'll see, you know.

“I mean, but that's also, like, the secret weapon, right, for any AI, you know, is the data that you've curated. So I doubt people are going to be, oh, we'll see, you know.”
Speaker
Steve Yegge
Publisher
Latent Space

05 / belief

At what point do we think that, you know, GPDX or whatever, you know, a pure, a transformer based LM model will be like state of the art or outperform the best like chess playing algorithm today? Because I think that is one milestone on...

“At what point do we think that, you know, GPDX or whatever, you know, a pure, a transformer based LM model will be like state of the art or outperform the best like chess playing algorithm today? Because I think that is one milestone on...”
Speaker
Beyang Liu
Publisher
Latent Space

06 / belief

You know, honestly, I think that the form factor that coding assistants have today is probably not the steady state that we're seeing, you know, long-term.

“You know, honestly, I think that the form factor that coding assistants have today is probably not the steady state that we're seeing, you know, long-term.”
Speaker
Steve Yegge
Publisher
Latent Space

08 / belief

I think, several key innovations away from happening right now. And I don't think the pure like transformer based LLM orchestrator modeled agents that is kind of like dominant today is going to get us there.

“I think, several key innovations away from happening right now. And I don't think the pure like transformer based LLM orchestrator modeled agents that is kind of like dominant today is going to get us there.”
Speaker
Beyang Liu
Publisher
Latent Space

09 / belief

Oh yeah, I would say so OpenCodeGraph is not a DSL. It's more of a protocol. It's basically like, hey, if you want to make your system, whether it's, you know, chat or logging or whatever accessible to an AI developer tool like Cody, here's kind of like the schema by which you can provide that context and offer hints.

“Oh yeah, I would say so OpenCodeGraph is not a DSL. It's more of a protocol. It's basically like, hey, if you want to make your system, whether it's, you know, chat or logging or whatever accessible to an AI developer tool like Cody, here's kind of like the schema by which you can provide that context and offer hints.”
Speaker
Beyang Liu
Publisher
Latent Space

10 / belief

How quickly models are evolving. But I think if you like kind of look out, I actually caught Sam Altman on the podcast yesterday talking about GPT-10.

“How quickly models are evolving. But I think if you like kind of look out, I actually caught Sam Altman on the podcast yesterday talking about GPT-10.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

12 / belief

I think the other interesting thing that you have is this inline assist UX that I wouldn't say async, but like it works while you can also do work.

“I think the other interesting thing that you have is this inline assist UX that I wouldn't say async, but like it works while you can also do work.”
Speaker
Alessio Fanelli
Publisher
Latent Space

13 / belief

We also had Han-Wen Nienhuys, who created Zoekt, which is, I think, heavily inspired by the Trigram index that powered Google's original code search and that we also now use at Sourcegraph.

“We also had Han-Wen Nienhuys, who created Zoekt, which is, I think, heavily inspired by the Trigram index that powered Google's original code search and that we also now use at Sourcegraph.”
Speaker
Beyang Liu
Publisher
Latent Space

16 / belief

Like, we have a couple of efforts where, like, we think fine tuning some models on specific coding tasks will yield more kind of, like, reliable code generation of the sort where it's, like, reliable enough that we can fully automate it, at least, like, the one hop thing.

“Like, we have a couple of efforts where, like, we think fine tuning some models on specific coding tasks will yield more kind of, like, reliable code generation of the sort where it's, like, reliable enough that we can fully automate it, at least, like, the one hop thing.”
Speaker
Beyang Liu
Publisher
Latent Space

17 / belief

You can throw any pile of crap at them, you know, more or less unstructured and they'll deal with it. So I think that's why a DSL hasn't emerged for sort of like communicating with the LLM or packaging up the context or anything.

“You can throw any pile of crap at them, you know, more or less unstructured and they'll deal with it. So I think that's why a DSL hasn't emerged for sort of like communicating with the LLM or packaging up the context or anything.”
Speaker
Steve Yegge
Publisher
Latent Space

20 / belief

I think that that does differentiate us from a lot of the other tools on the market, because a lot of people are going after this, like, shnazzy, like, inline edit interaction, whereas I think where we've moved, and this is based on the user feedback that we've gotten, it's like that sort of thing, it demos well, but when you're actually coding day to day, you don't want to have, like, a long chat conversation inline with the code base.

“I think that that does differentiate us from a lot of the other tools on the market, because a lot of people are going after this, like, shnazzy, like, inline edit interaction, whereas I think where we've moved, and this is based on the user feedback that we've gotten, it's like that sort of thing, it demos well, but when you're actually coding day to day, you don't want to have, like, a long chat conversation inline with the code base.”
Speaker
Beyang Liu
Publisher
Latent Space

22 / belief

I think there are a couple of other technologies or approaches that need to be refined first before we can get into these kind of, like, multi-stage, fully automated workflows.

“I think there are a couple of other technologies or approaches that need to be refined first before we can get into these kind of, like, multi-stage, fully automated workflows.”
Speaker
Beyang Liu
Publisher
Latent Space

24 / belief

I think basically like the value profit of DSL is that it makes it easier to work with a lower level language, but at the expense of introducing an abstraction layer.

“I think basically like the value profit of DSL is that it makes it easier to work with a lower level language, but at the expense of introducing an abstraction layer.”
Speaker
Beyang Liu
Publisher
Latent Space

25 / uncertainty

I don't know, like in terms of like trying to describe what we're building, we try to be a little bit more like down to earth and like straightforward. And I think like Normsky kind of like encapsulates like the two big technology areas that we're investing in that we think will be very important for producing really good dev tools.

“I don't know, like in terms of like trying to describe what we're building, we try to be a little bit more like down to earth and like straightforward. And I think like Normsky kind of like encapsulates like the two big technology areas that we're investing in that we think will be very important for producing really good dev tools.”
Speaker
Beyang Liu
Publisher
Latent Space

27 / evaluation

In the way that super apps don't exist in the West. It's one of the enduring mysteries of B2C that super apps work in the East and don't work in the West.

“In the way that super apps don't exist in the West. It's one of the enduring mysteries of B2C that super apps work in the East and don't work in the West.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

28 / belief

Even like the single hop, like write a function that does this. Because I think like if you want to get to the point where you can actually be truly agentic or like multi-step automated, a necessary part of that is like the single step has to be robust and reliable.

“Even like the single hop, like write a function that does this. Because I think like if you want to get to the point where you can actually be truly agentic or like multi-step automated, a necessary part of that is like the single step has to be robust and reliable.”
Speaker
Beyang Liu
Publisher
Latent Space

29 / evaluation

Like, it definitely moves the needle a lot, but we're not quite there yet to the point where you can just fire and forget. And I actually think that this is something that people don't broadly appreciate yet, because I think that, like, everyone's chasing this dream of agentic execution.

“Like, it definitely moves the needle a lot, but we're not quite there yet to the point where you can just fire and forget. And I actually think that this is something that people don't broadly appreciate yet, because I think that, like, everyone's chasing this dream of agentic execution.”
Speaker
Beyang Liu
Publisher
Latent Space

30 / evaluation

I think that's a very real concern in today's day and age, because like if your proprietary IP finds its way into the training set of any model, it's very easy both to like extract that knowledge from the model and also use it to, you know, build systems that kind of work on top of the institutional knowledge that you've built up.

“I think that's a very real concern in today's day and age, because like if your proprietary IP finds its way into the training set of any model, it's very easy both to like extract that knowledge from the model and also use it to, you know, build systems that kind of work on top of the institutional knowledge that you've built up.”
Speaker
Beyang Liu
Publisher
Latent Space

31 / preference

I knew you from your blog posts, which were always excellent, kind of like inside, very thoughtful takes from an engineer's perspective on some of the challenges facing tech companies and tech culture and that sort of thing. But my first introduction to you within the context of code intelligence, code understanding was I watched a talk that you gave, I think at Stanford, about Grok when you're first building it.

“I knew you from your blog posts, which were always excellent, kind of like inside, very thoughtful takes from an engineer's perspective on some of the challenges facing tech companies and tech culture and that sort of thing. But my first introduction to you within the context of code intelligence, code understanding was I watched a talk that you gave, I think at Stanford, about Grok when you're first building it.”
Speaker
Beyang Liu
Publisher
Latent Space

32 / commitment

We've kind of designed Cody to be like especially model, not agnostic, but like pluggable. So one of our kind of design considerations was like as the ecosystem evolves, we want to be able to integrate the best in class models, whether they're proprietary or open source into Cody because the pace of innovation in the space is just so quick.

“We've kind of designed Cody to be like especially model, not agnostic, but like pluggable. So one of our kind of design considerations was like as the ecosystem evolves, we want to be able to integrate the best in class models, whether they're proprietary or open source into Cody because the pace of innovation in the space is just so quick.”
Speaker
Beyang Liu
Publisher
Latent Space

33 / evaluation

If the worst case played out, then I think we'd have a lot of customers, you know, the day after being like, you know, how can you guarantee the reliability of your services if the company itself isn't stable? But I'm really happy they got things sorted out and things are stable now because, like, they build really cool stuff and we love using their tech.

“If the worst case played out, then I think we'd have a lot of customers, you know, the day after being like, you know, how can you guarantee the reliability of your services if the company itself isn't stable? But I'm really happy they got things sorted out and things are stable now because, like, they build really cool stuff and we love using their tech.”
Speaker
Beyang Liu
Publisher
Latent Space

34 / preference

In terms of like other vendors that we use, I mean, obviously like nothing but good things to say about Anthropic and OpenAI, which we both kind of partner with and use.

“In terms of like other vendors that we use, I mean, obviously like nothing but good things to say about Anthropic and OpenAI, which we both kind of partner with and use.”
Speaker
Beyang Liu
Publisher
Latent Space

35 / prediction

Because I think that would be, I mean, just to put my cards on the table, I think that would kind of disprove the thesis that I just stated, which is, you know, kind of like the pure transformer, just scale the transformer based approach.

“Because I think that would be, I mean, just to put my cards on the table, I think that would kind of disprove the thesis that I just stated, which is, you know, kind of like the pure transformer, just scale the transformer based approach.”
Speaker
Beyang Liu
Publisher
Latent Space

36 / evaluation

In the early days, it was the LLM did everything. And then we realized that for certain use cases, like completions, that a different, smaller, faster model would be better.

“In the early days, it was the LLM did everything. And then we realized that for certain use cases, like completions, that a different, smaller, faster model would be better.”
Speaker
Steve Yegge
Publisher
Latent Space

37 / recommendation

Mentions personal use of Cody.

“Yeah, this is my perfect place to put my anecdote of how I used Cody yesterday. I was actually trying to build this sort of Twitter scraper thing. And Twitter is notoriously very challenging to work with because they don't want to work with you, with anyone. There's a repo that I wanted to inspect. It was really big that had the Twitter scraper thing in it. And I pulled it into Copilot, didn't work. But then I noticed that on your landing page, you had a web version. Like, I typically think of Cody as a VS Code extension, but you have a web version where you just plug in any repo in there and just talk to it. And that's what I used to figure it out.”
Speaker
Shawn Wang
Publisher
Latent Space

38 / recommendation

Mentions personal use of Google Code Search.

“I used Google Code Search while I was an intern. And then after I left that internship and worked elsewhere, it was the single dev tool that I missed the most. I felt like my job was just a lot more tedious and much more of a hassle without it.”
Speaker
Beyang Liu
Publisher
Latent Space
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