Jonathan Haidt: preference

Transcript context

…Yes. People can still do that. I agree there’s too much homework, by the way. No, that’s right. Especially in the early grades, there’s no reason for it in first, second, third, fourth grade. I think we are reaching some agreement here, which is that the technology is currently hooking kids into a collective action problem. Most of them say they’re only on it, or on it this much, because they have to be. They don’t want to be. They wish things could be different, so they’re kind of trapped now. I think we agree that if we could liberate the kids from that so that they could really spend a lot more time hanging out together unsupervised, they would be better off. They would be happier, and then they could have many of the benefits of the technologies. I agree with you on that. That’s actually what I’m trying to do in my book. In the book, after I go through the analysis of collective action problems, I say, “Here are four norms that will solve for the biggest collective action problems.” And if we can do this, then we would liberate kids to do just what you were saying. The four norms are no smartphone before high school. Kids can have flip phones to communicate. Flip phones were not harmful. You can use them to communicate, to say, “I’ll see you at 4:00. Let’s meet at the mall.” But you’re not going to type out long things about what someone said and how you feel. You’re going to wait till you see each other in person. No smartphones before high school, and the kids can still have laptops. They can have other things, but it’s the constant connection in your pocket. That’s what has really done them in. That’s what brought about the phone-based childhood. So that’s number one. Second norm, no social media till 16. You have most of the rest of the internet. You can connect in all kinds of ways, but to open an account . . . I’m not saying they can’t see a YouTube video, of course, or a TikTok video. I’m saying they cannot sign a contract with a company to give away their data, to be exposed, to have an account, to have a name, to get sucked into the whole performance game. Let’s just delay that till 16. The evidence shows — and actually, this is from an Orben and Przybylski study a couple of years ago — that the maximum damage is done to girls around 11 to 13 and boys around 14 to 15, so let’s just delay it till 16. That’s the second. Third is phone-free schools. No one’s ever pointed out a benefit to letting kids have their phones with them during class. Now, in high school, maybe they use them for some lesson plans. I’m not saying there’s zero benefits, but the distraction effect is so gigantic that as long as you can text, you will text. So just put the phone in a phone locker or in a Yondr pouch when you arrive, and you get them when you go home. That’s the third one, phone-free schools. That would give them seven hours a day where they could talk to each other and to their teachers. Then the fourth one is far more childhood independence and free play. This is all the Lenore Skenazy work, Free-Range Kids. seven hours a day where they could talk to each other and to their teachers. Then the fourth one is far more childhood independence and free play. This is all the Lenore Skenazy work, Free-Range Kids. She and I and Peter Gray founded an organization called Let Grow. If there are any parents listening, if you have kids under 12, please go to letgrow.org. We have all kinds of ideas and advice and ways that you can give your kid a healthier, more play-based childhood, which fosters development, happiness, competence. Those four norms — if we could do it, then I think we would roll back a lot of the mental illness. We’d free kids up for a lot more time to play with each other and hang out together, and then I’d be much less worried.…

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