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Published · transcript-backedPaul Gillingham: evaluation
25 Mar 2026 Conversations with Tyler Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together
“The other is You Dreamed of Empires in English, which is a retelling of the conquest as this glorified heist by a bunch of fortunate thugs, which I think most historians would agree with, and has some twists in it which are stunning.”
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- Speaker
- Paul Gillingham
- Attribution
- Verified speaker
- Claim type
- evaluation
- Recorded
- 25 Mar 2026
- Publisher
- Conversations with Tyler
Transcript context
…Why Artemio Cruz as your pick? Artemio Cruz, because of the real human complexity of it. It’s the story of a young revolutionary who manages, through violence, luck, business smarts, extortion, to move from very poor beginnings to being a major Mexican mogul. The story skips between his life in decadent old age—and he’s made it, but in a classic sort of the hollowness of wealth down. He’s made it, but in human times, he’s totally emptied. Then the beginning, the story, if he got there, I find it so moving, so tragic, and so deeply evocative of the Mexico I read about, the Mexico I study. I say, if I’d read it 10 years later, who knows? If I’d read it last year, I might actually be ranking it below the recent novels of Álvaro Enrigue, who two novels really stick out. One is like a modern Muerte de Artemio Cruz; it’s called Decency, Decencia, which anybody who likes Mexican humor, likes Mexico City, will just get. The other is You Dreamed of Empires in English, which is a retelling of the conquest as this glorified heist by a bunch of fortunate thugs, which I think most historians would agree with, and has some twists in it which are stunning. Alvaro, of course, has the advantage of he actually reads quite a lot of history. When he writes history, the details are there, and you find yourself nodding, “Oh, yes. I can believe that.” Ezra Klein is a big fan of the conquest book.…
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