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Michael Nielsen: observation

7 Apr 2026 Dwarkesh Podcast Michael Nielsen – How science actually progresses

“Then you’re going to start by doing the simplest possible stuff. It just turns out that a lot of that stuff doesn’t work very well, so you’re forced to go through these steps where gradually it gets more complicated, and it’s wrong in a variety of ways.”

— Michael Nielsen

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Speaker
Michael Nielsen
Attribution
Verified speaker
Claim type
observation
Recorded
7 Apr 2026
Publisher
Dwarkesh Podcast

Transcript context

…Sorry for misunderstanding, but it sounds like you’re saying maybe there’s some regularizer or some distillation you could do of a very complicated model that gets you to a truer, more parsimonious theory. Take Ptolemy versus Copernicus. You start off with lots of Ptolemy epicycles, and then you try to distill this model, and maybe it gets rid of some of the epicycles that are less and less necessary to get the mean squared error of the orbits to match. But at some point it has to do this thing which is to switch two things. Locally, it actually doesn’t make things more accurate. It’s in a global sense that it’s a more progressive theory. There’s some process which obviously humanity did over its span, which did that regularization or did that swap. But with raw gradient descent, I don’t really feel like it would do that. Think about the example of going from Newtonian gravity to Einstein’s general theory of relativity. These are shockingly different theories, and the question is what causes that flip. As nearly as I understand the history, what goes on is Einstein develops special relativity and pretty much straight away he understands. It’s a very obvious observation. In special relativity, influences can’t propagate faster than the speed of light, and in Newtonian gravity, action is at a distance. Straight away in special relativity, you could use Newtonian gravity to do faster-than-light signaling. You could send information backwards in time. You could do all kinds of crazy stuff. It’s not a big leap to realize we have a big problem here. That’s the forcing function there. You’ve realized that your old explanation is not sufficient. You need something new. Then you’re going to start by doing the simplest possible stuff. It just turns out that a lot of that stuff doesn’t work very well, so you’re forced to go through these steps where gradually it gets more complicated, and it’s wrong in a variety of ways. The final theory appears shockingly simple and beautiful, but it’s gone through some somewhat ugly intermediate stages. If you’re thinking about what it looks like to have AI accelerate science, there’s one for well-understood domains where we just want local solutions, like how does this protein fold. We just train a raw model using gradient descent. Then there’s things like coming up with general relativity, where you couldn’t really just train on every single observation in the universe and hope that general relativity pops out. What would it require? It also certainly wasn’t immediately discovered. It was decades of thought. You’d need independent research programs where people start off with these biases, where Einstein is initially motivated by this thought experiment of whether you can distinguish the effect of gravity from just being accelerated upwards. You just need different AI thinkers to start off with these initial biases and see what can germinate out of them. The verification loop for that might be quite long, but you just need to keep all those research programs alive at the same time.…

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