Evidence receipt / evaluation
Published · transcript-backedDwarkesh Patel: evaluation
15 May 2026 Dwarkesh Podcast Eric Jang – Building AlphaGo from scratch
“While you’re erasing, another thing that was important for me to understand was about the MCTS data structure with nodes and children of nodes.”
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Everything needed to verify it.
- Speaker
- Dwarkesh Patel
- Attribution
- Verified speaker
- Claim type
- evaluation
- Recorded
- 15 May 2026
- Publisher
- Dwarkesh Podcast
Transcript context
…The important intuition at a high level—to step back about where we’re going with all this—is that classically, for games like Go, you could build a tree, but we don’t have computers powerful enough for that. Estimating the value of every action you could possibly take is also hard because you don’t know until the end of the game. You could take averages by playing them to the end, but that’s also hard because you don’t know which actions to take to sample these averages. Conceptually, there are two problems: the breadth of the tree and the depth of the tree. AlphaGo gives us a way to shrink both of those to be tractable. That’s essentially the core idea behind it. We take the idea that humans can glance at a board and instantly predict whether we win. That maybe gives us the opportunity to truncate how deep we search. We also know that humans can intuitively, at a glance, decide what moves might be good on a Go board. These are two things we can use deep neural networks for, to accelerate the search process. Before we talk about neural nets, let’s go back to how this playout works. We’ve only talked about making one move. The AI looks at this encoded Go board. It has a tree. It searches deeply into the tree to find out which of its actions might be the best, takes that action, and goes back to the human. Now the human sees a Go board that looks like this, and they make their move. Maybe they put their stone here. Now we go back to the AI, which now looks at a new encoded board. I’ve used 2 to denote the AI playing as white, 1 to denote the human playing as black, and 0 as empty. On the AI’s turn, it does the MCTS tree search all over again from scratch. It throws away the old tree that it searched last round. Now there’s a new root node and it begins to search anew. You can basically think about MCTS as a search algorithm that decides which moves to play best, aided by neural networks, and it’s done on every move. Let’s talk about the neural network part of this. While you’re erasing, another thing that was important for me to understand was about the MCTS data structure with nodes and children of nodes. This is done per move and reinstantiated once a move is made. A human makes a move, then the AI looks at this and runs a bunch of simulations to figure out what move to make next. A simulation is exploring one more node in the MCTS tree. Once you run 1,000 simulations, that informs the probability of what move to make next, as you’ll explain. That’s what you store. You choose the best move given those probabilities. You discard all of that, the next player makes a move, and you restart this process at the beginning of every move. Correct. One small addendum: you don’t discard all of that. You keep one thing behind that we’ll use later. Now that we have a basic intuition of how moves are made with search, we’re going to talk about how neural networks can speed this up by providing an analog to human intuition. There are two networks. There is the value network, which takes in a state and predicts, am I going to win or lose? It’s a binary classification problem. Then we have a policy network, which induces a distribution over good actions to take. I’m going to draw a one-dimensional flattened move distribution, but this is really a square grid. These are the probability distributions over good actions. Both of these are categorical classification problems. You can train this like any classifier with deep learning, cross-entropy loss, that kind of stuff. The specific architecture does not matter too much. I tried a few different architectures. Transformers work, ResNets work. For small data regimes, my experience is that ResNets still outperform transformers and give you more bang for the buck at lower budgets. But this may not always be true.…
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