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14 Mar 2024 Lex Fridman Podcast #418 – Israel-Palestine Debate: Finkelstein, Destiny, M. Rabbani & Benny Morris

“I will answer the question- The pilots were out to kill four children- I will even answer the moron’s questions- Because that was a strike, that was a drone strike, so that was approved all the way up the chain that we’re going to kill children today.”

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14 Mar 2024
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Lex Fridman Podcast

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…attempt to induce this type of military activity, attempt to induce civilian harm, that it’s not just enough to say, “Well, here’s a diary entry where a guy talks about how tragic these attacks are.” See, I think the problem with your statement is that if you go back and listen to it, the first part of it is, war is hell, civilians die. It’s a fact of life. And you state that in a very factual matter. Then when you start talking about Hamas, all of a sudden you’ve discovered morality and you’ve discovered condemnation and you’ve discovered intent, and you are unfortunately far from alone in this. I’ll give you… You know who for me is a perfect example? Wait, hold on. We’re [inaudible 02:42:14]. We don’t need examples- No… Oh, go ahead. The false equivalency of the two sides is astounding. When Hamas kills civilians in a surprise attack on October 7th, this isn’t because they are attempting to target military targets and they happen to stumble into a giant festival of people that- Well, they did happen to stumble into it. They did, but- And they killed 300 people in the music festival- But when they stumbled into it, that wasn’t an issue of trying to figure out a military target or not. They weren’t failing a distinction. There wasn’t a proportionality assessment done. It was just to kill civilians. Even the Amnesty International in 2008 and in 2014, and even today, will continue to say that there’s likely types of attacks- Look, I don’t think you’ll find anyone who will deny that Hamas has targeted civilians. You gave the example- But there’s a difference because- … of suicide bombings during the Second Intifada. Facts are facts- Sure, but I’m just saying that the Hamas targeting of innocent civilians is different than the incidental loss of life that occurs when Israel does- Whoa, the incidental loss of life- Genocide is the intentional mass murder- Well, genocide is a entirely separate claim. Yeah, but the idea that Israel is not in the business of intentionally targeting civilians, I know that’s what we’re supposed to believe, but the historical record stands pretty clearly- No, it doesn’t. I don’t believe it does. You’ve written about it yourself- Well, when you say historical, do you mean in the ’40s to the ’60s, or do you mean over the past- I would say from the ’30s of the last century to the ’20s of this century. The way you characterized it, I think the best example of that I’ve come across during this specific conflict is John Kirby, the White House spokesman. I’ve named him Tears Tosterone, for a very good reason. When he is talking about Palestinian civilian deaths, war is hell, it’s a fact of life, get used to it. When he was confronted with Israeli civilian deaths on October 7th, he literally broke down in tears in public- But he understood that one is deliberate and one isn’t. He understood that. No, that’s what he tried to make us understand. No, he was speaking facts. The Hamas guys who attacked the kibbutzim, apart from the attacks on the military sites, when they attacked the kibbutzim, were out to kill civilians. And they killed family after family, house after house. The Israeli attacks on Hamas installations- rom the attacks on the military sites, when they attacked the kibbutzim, were out to kill civilians. And they killed family after family, house after house. The Israeli attacks on Hamas installations- You know better. You know better- No, I don’t know better. You don’t know Israeli pilots, that’s the problem- Thank God. No, you don’t know Israeli pilots- I know, thank God. They believe that they are killing Hamas snakes. They’re given certain objectives and that’s what they attack. And if the Hamas is hiding behind civilians, civilians die. Simple as that- Every time they target a kid, I’m sure they believe it’s Hamas. [inaudible 02:44:53] Yeah. When they killed the four kids on the… They believed that they were Hamas snakes- I know they believed it. Even though they were diminutive size, even though they were [inaudible 02:45:03] You know from that angle, you don’t see the sides- No, they saw the sides, but let’s see the side- Oh, I know what he’s quoting, correct, but you’ve lied about this particular instance in the past. Those kids weren’t just on the beaches as often stated in articles. Those kids were literally coming out of a previously identified Hamas compound that they had operated from. They literally- Mr. Borelli- You could Google it, Mr. Finkel-stinker- Mr. Borelli, with all due respect, you’re such a fantastic moron, it’s terrifying. That wharf was filled with journalists. There were scores of journalists. That was an old fisherman’s shack. What are you talking about? It’s so painful to listen to this idiocy- And to be clear, on the other side, you’re implying that the strike was okayed on the Israeli side where they said, “We’re just going to kill four Palestinian people today for no reason.” Hey- Do you believe that? Do you believe that? Do you believe that? [inaudible 02:45:57] journalists, do you think that [inaudible 02:46:00] Here we go- That they would actually kill four children? He went answer the question- Here we go- He will never answer that question. I will answer the question- The pilots were out to kill four children- I will even answer the moron’s questions- Because that was a strike, that was a drone strike, so that was approved all the way up the chain that we’re going to kill children today. We’re going to kill Palestinian children today- Okay, you want me to answer or do you want your motormouth to go? Okay, answer. In 2018, there was the Great March of Return in Gaza by all reckonings of human rights organizations and journalists who were there. It was overwhelmingly nonviolent- And organized by the Hamas. Whoever organized it- It was organized by Satan, let’s start with that- Satan- No, by Hamas- Okay, Satan. I agree. Let’s go for the big one, the big magilla. It’s Satan, okay. Overwhelmingly non-violent. Resembled at the beginning the First Intifada- They threw bombs here and there. Okay, not bombs, but- They tried to make holes in the fence, obviously- Okay, let’s continue. Yeah. So- But I’m not sure Israel behaved morally in that respect. Okay- No, no, no- Okay, wait, wait, wait- I’m willing to grant you that. Please, please. Allow me to- You don’t have to pursue it because I’m willing to grant- Israel behaved morally in that respect. Okay- No, no, no- Okay, wait, wait, wait- I’m willing to grant you that. Please, please. Allow me to- You don’t have to pursue it because I’m willing to grant- Allow me to finish- I don’t know anything about this. I’d like to hear. Okay. So as you know, along the Gaza perimeter, there was Israel’s best-trained snipers. Correct? I don’t know best-trained. There was snipers- Fine. Okay. All right. Because… Hey, laugh. It’s hilarious. This story’s so funny- You’re lying. The Great March of Return had aspects of violence to it. Even the UN says it themselves. Okay, okay, okay. But you only collect what the UN says that you like. You see the problem, Mr. Morelli, is, you don’t know the English language. You don’t- I can read from the UN website itself. In regards to the Great March of Return, they said, “While the vast majority of protestors have acted in a peaceful manner, during most protests dozens have approached the fence attempting to damage it, burning fires, throwing stones and Molotov cocktails towards Israeli forces, and flying incendiary kites and balloons into Israeli territory. The latter resulted in extensive damage to agricultural land and nature reserves inside Israel and risked the lives of Israeli civilians. Some incidents of shooting and throwing of explosives also reported-“ Talk Fast. Talk fast so people think that you’re coherent- I’m just reading from the UN- Yeah, but you’re saying- I know you like them sometimes, only when they agree with you though. You got the months wrong. You got the months wrong. We’re talking about the beginning in March 30th to what- You just described that march as mostly peaceful. Okay, allow me to finish. So there were the snipers, okay. Now, you find it so far-fetched. Israelis purposely, deliberately targeting civilians? That’s such a far-fetched idea. An overwhelmingly nonviolent march. What did the international investigation- It wasn’t the march. It was a campaign which went on for months. Whatever you want to call it, yeah. What did the UN investigation find? It found- Well, he just read it for you. I read the report. I don’t read things off of those machines. I read the report. What did it find? Brace yourself. You thought it was so funny, the idea of IDF targeting civilians. It found… Go look this up on your machine- I already know what you’re going to say. You’re going to say it found that only one or two of them were justified killings- It targeted children, targeted journalists, targeted medics. And here’s the funniest one of all, it’s so hilarious, they targeted disabled people who were 300 meters away from the fence and just standing by trees- If this is true, if what you’re saying is true-…

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