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Nathan Lambert: belief

3 Feb 2025 Lex Fridman Podcast #459 – DeepSeek, China, OpenAI, NVIDIA, xAI, TSMC, Stargate, and AI Megaclusters

“For the past few years, the highest cost human data has been in these preferences, which is comparing, I would say, highest cost and highest total usage, so a lot of money has gone to these pairwise comparisons where you have two model outputs and a human is comparing between the two of them.”

— Nathan Lambert

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Speaker
Nathan Lambert
Attribution
Verified speaker
Claim type
belief
Recorded
3 Feb 2025
Publisher
Lex Fridman Podcast

Transcript context

…Big philosophical question here with RLHF. So, to generalize, where is human input, human in the loop, human data the most useful at the current stage? For the past few years, the highest cost human data has been in these preferences, which is comparing, I would say, highest cost and highest total usage, so a lot of money has gone to these pairwise comparisons where you have two model outputs and a human is comparing between the two of them. In earlier years, there was a lot of this instruction tuning data, so creating highly specific examples to something like a Reddit question to a domain that you care about. Language models used to struggle on math and code, so you would pay experts in math and code to come up with questions and write detailed answers that were used to train the models. Now, it is the case that there are many model options that are way better than humans at writing detailed and eloquent answers for things like model and code. So they talked about this with the Llama 3 release, where they switched to using Llama 3, 4, or 5B to write their answers for math and code. But they, in their paper, talk about how they use extensive human preference data, which is something that they haven’t gotten AIs to replace. There are other techniques in industry, like constitutional AI, where you use human data for preferences and AI for preferences, and I expect the AI part to scale faster than the human part. But among the research that we have access to is that humans are in this kind of preference loop. So, as reasoning becomes bigger and bigger and bigger, as we said, where’s the role of humans in that?…

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