Speaker unverified: belief

Transcript context

…There’s been almost exclusive focus on the attacks on civilian population centers and the killings of civilians on October 7th. What is much less discussed to the point of amnesia is that there were very extensive attacks on Israeli military and intelligence facilities on October 7th. I would make a very clear distinction between those two. And secondly, I’m not sure that I would characterize the efforts by Palestinians on October 7th to seize Israeli territory and Israeli population centers as in and of themselves illegitimate. You mean attacking Israeli civilians is legitimate? No. That’s not what I said. I didn’t understand what you said. I think what you had on October 7th was an effort by Hamas to seize Israeli territory and population centers- And kill civilians. That’s not what I said. What I said is, I would not describe the effort to seize Israeli territory as in and of itself illegitimate, as a separate issue from the killing of Israeli civilians in those cases where they had been deliberately targeted. That’s very clearly illegitimate. Whole families were slaughtered in kibbutzim, many of them left-wingers incidentally who helped Palestinians go to hospitals in Israel and so on, even drove Palestinian cancer patients to hospitals in Israeli- Again, I’m making a distinction here- But you don’t seem to be very condemnatory of what the Hamas did. Well, I don’t do selective condemnation- I’m not talking about selective. I’m talking about- I don’t do selective outrage. … specific condemnation of this specific assault on civilians. I would, for example, condemn Israeli assaults on civilians, deliberate assaults on civilians. I would condemn them, but you’re not doing that with the Hamas. You know what the issue is? What? I’ve been speaking in public now, I would say since the late-1980s and interviewed and so on. I have never on one occasion ever been asked to condemn any Israeli act. When I’ve been in group discussions, those supporting the Israeli action or perspective, I have never encountered an example where these individuals are asked to condemn what Israel is doing. The demand and obligation of condemnation is exclusively applied, in my personal experience over decades, is exclusively applied to Palestinians- No, this is [inaudible 02:25:04] Israel is condemned day and night on every television channel, and has been for the last- I’m telling you about personal experience lasting decades- You said quote- Uh-oh. Oh, no. I’m trying to quote what you just said. You said- I shouldn’t have said anything at any [inaudible 02:25:20] Professor Morris? Yes. You just said, “I would condemn anytime Israel deliberately attacks civilians.” The problem, Professor Morris, is, over and over again, you claim in the face of overwhelming evidence that they didn’t attack civilians- would condemn anytime Israel deliberately attacks civilians.” The problem, Professor Morris, is, over and over again, you claim in the face of overwhelming evidence that they didn’t attack civilians- That’s not true. I’ve said Israel has attacked civilians. In [inaudible 02:25:51] Israel attacked civilians, and I’ve written extensively about it. In Kfar Qasim, they killed civilians, and I’ve written that. So you’re just admitting you’re selecting… As Steven says, you cherry-pick. You cherry-pick. Okay, let’s fast-forward. When you were an adult, what did you say about the 1982 Lebanon War? What did I say? You don’t remember? Okay, allow me. Uh-oh. Okay. So it happens that I had no interest in the Israel-Palestine conflict as a young man- This is true. … until the 1982 Lebanon War. Yep. He’s lost the passage- I’ll find it. Okay, real quick while he’s searching for that, you bring up something that’s really important that a lot of people don’t draw a distinction between, in that there is just causes for war and there is just ways to act within a war, and these two things principally do have a distinction from one another. Correct. However, while I appreciate the recognition of the distinction, the idea that the cause for war that Hamas was engaged in, if we look at their actions in war or the statements that they’ve made, it doesn’t seem like it had to do with the territorial acquisition. No, no, no- By taking land back. No, the point I was making was, what was Hamas trying to achieve militarily on October 7th? And I was pointing out that the focus has been very much on Hamas attacks on civilians and atrocities and so on. And I’m not saying those things should be ignored. What I’m saying is that what’s getting lost in the shuffle is that there were extensive attacks on military and intelligence facilities. And as far as the other aspects are concerned, because I think either you or Lex asked me about the legitimacy of these attacks, I said I’m unclear whether efforts by Hamas to seize Israeli population centers in and of themselves are illegitimate as opposed to actions that either deliberately targeted Israeli civilians or actions that should reasonably have been expected to result in the killings of Israeli civilians. Those strike me as, by definition, illegitimate, and I want to be very clear about that. I have- Illegitimate means you condemn them? Illegitimate means they are not legitimate. I have a problem- Condemning your side, yes. No, not condemning my side. I have a problem with selective outrage and I have a problem with selective condemnation. And as I explained to you a few minutes ago, in my decades of appearing in public and being interviewed, I have never been asked to condemn an Israeli action, I’ve never been asked for a moral judgment on an Israeli action. Exclusive requests for condemnation has to do with what Palestinians [inaudible 02:29:01] And just as importantly, I’m sure if you watch BBC or CNN, when is the last time an Israeli spokesperson has been asked to condemn an Israeli act? I’ve never seen it. I don’t think we condemn the Arab side either though, right? I don’t think there’s any condemnation- the last time an Israeli spokesperson has been asked to condemn an Israeli act? I’ve never seen it. I don’t think we condemn the Arab side either though, right? I don’t think there’s any condemnation- No. But now that we’re talking about Israeli victims, all of a sudden morality is central- Well, I think the reason why it comes up is because there’s no shortage of international condemnation for Israel. As Norm will point out a million times, that there are 50 billion UN resolutions, you’ve got Amnesty International, you’ve got multiple bodies of the UN, you’ve got now this case for the ICJ. So there’s no question of if there’s condemnation for Israel- But sorry, if I can interrupt you, in 1948, the entire world stood behind the establishment of a Jewish state, and the entire world- No, except Arab states and the Muslim states. Not the entire world. Okay, but I think you know what I mean by that. The Western democracies, that’s what you’re saying. Western democracies supported the establishment of Israel. My quick question was, you said that you believe that… This is a very short one, you don’t have to… You think that there’s an argument to be made that the people in Gaza, Hamas and Islamic Jihad or whoever participated had a just cause for war. Maybe they didn’t do it in the correct way, but they maybe had a just cause for war, which is- I don’t think there’s a maybe there. The Palestinians have- Okay, you think they absolutely had a just cause for it. Yes. Do you think that Israel has a just cause for Operation Swords of Iron? No, of course not. All right. You can say your quote. Okay. First of all, on this issue of double standards, which is the one that irks or irritates Mouin, you said that you are not a person of double standards, unlike people like Mouin. You hold high a single standard and you condemn deliberate Israeli attacks on- Civilians. … civilians. And I would say that’s true for the period up till 1967, and I think it’s accurate, your account of the First Intifada. There, it seems to me you are in conformity with most mainstream accounts and the case of the First Intifada. Surprisingly, you used Arab human rights sources like Al-Haq, which I think Mouin worked for during the First Intifada. That’s true. But then something very strange happens, so let’s illustrate it- Wait, the something strange which happened is the Arabs rejected Israel’s peace offers- Okay, wait. That’s what happened. By accepting the Oslo agreements. Yeah. Not the- By rejecting… He’s talking about Camp David and Taba. I’m talking about Camp David.…

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