Maya Prohovnik: evaluation

Transcript context

…Anyway, another area that I've heard you're really strong at and came up with Wilma and a few other people I talked to is you find a really good balance between being very data-driven and also very gut driven, and this is something a lot of product leaders try to get better at. And so I'm curious just what have you learned about try to find that balance and also is there an example of something where you went against the data and went with your gut and it worked out. If you remember the old days of the internet, I feel like there was really this different way of thinking about product development where it was so much more about what felt good and what made you feel something as a user in that product. And so it's like we used to be a lot more playful I think with software. I think we used to put a lot more emphasis on things like delightful animations or fun little Easter eggs, and I am not sure when or where that got lost, but it feels like product management as a role has gotten formalized and become a little bit more scientific, I'm generalizing, but I think a lot of product managers can be so focused on using the right frameworks and making sure that they have the right roadmap and all of this stuff. And then it's like you find yourself in this cycle where you're just building things to build them and not really thinking about the connection to the end user. I think data is amazing and I'm like, we have such an incredible insights team at Spotify, both my insights team and then the broader one. I think we are so lucky and we have so much knowledge about our users and different cohorts and what people need and what they're missing, and so I think that's extremely valuable. I think where people get into trouble is when they think that they can rely solely on the data. And so what I spend a lot of time talking to my team about is how we can balance that. So thinking about, I guess a couple general things I would say are there are right and wrong times I think for both for your gut and for data. And then there are lots of different kinds of data and different ways to use that data. So I think when you're in the trap of just being like, well, this is the process we always have with insights and we're just going to run this every time we have a feature, I don't think you're going to have a great time. I think if you think of it as part of the creative process as a PM where you're like, I have a hypothesis, I have some data that is helping me understand that hypothesis in the first place or form it in the first place, then I'm going to do some user research and try a couple of things and see what works for people. Then I'm going to make sure that we have success metrics and that we know what we're looking for when we launch, then we're going to follow, et cetera. So I think there's different times and places for all the different types of data collection that you can do. The other thing I would say is something that I have had to learn as a leader, especially as part of a larger organization, when we were a startup Anchor was like 20 people when we got acquired by Spotify. And by the way, Spotify is my first big tech company, so I've always been at startups, so I've learned a lot about that. But when I was leading product at a startup, it's like we're a small team, we're really focused on moving quickly. big tech company, so I've always been at startups, so I've learned a lot about that. But when I was leading product at a startup, it's like we're a small team, we're really focused on moving quickly. There isn't a whole lot of stopping to ask what data is supporting this or it's just like we talked to some users and we're like, great, that's a problem. We're just going to go and fix it. And I think at Spotify there's obviously at places like Spotify, I mean, large organizations, there's obviously a lot more people that you need to coordinate. There's a lot of people you have to influence that aren't on your immediate team. And so I think something that I've had to learn is that being gut driven isn't the same as just saying to people, I told you or I believe this, so you have to do it. There really is an art I think to balancing that. And I think that what I try to do is always still as objectively as possible explain why my gut is feeling that way. So it's like you can refer back to your years of experience or other things that you've done that have been similar. You can talk about your experience as a user testing this stuff. You can bring in stories and anecdotes from users to help back it up. And so I have found that that works obviously a lot better. And I think that in the times that either I have done this or I've seen other leaders do it, where they're just like, well, we're just going to do it this way even if you guys don't agree or if the data says something different, those projects are always immediately doomed from the beginning. They're never going to work. You can't drag all these people through something that they don't believe in. So I think I would think of your gut actually as a type of data and I think it's a totally valid one and it's just I think you need to be clear that that's what you're working with, but then it should be taken as seriously as any other data point. So I try and think of it that way where it's like this should all ideally work together. And obviously the more data you have and the more types of data you have, the more convincing you're going to be and the more right you're going to be. So I think it all helps. There were so many of these in the early days of Anchor because I don't even know, I don't think we had a data scientist until we were part of Spotify, so I think it was just engineers running queries. But there were a couple times where we had to move Anchor from 1.0 to 2.0 and then from 2.0 to 3.0, we did these big, I don't like to call them pivots, but sort of evolutions let's say, of our product or our strategy terminology also very important when you're trying to convince people of things. So when I was thinking about those big transitions for us as a team, I think both times we had these big moments with our teams where we had to get everyone on board with making these big changes. So with Anchor 1.0, I don't know if you remember, but it was actually similar to what Clubhouse I think just rebranded to more voice messaging and short form and more about connections between people. And that was the first thing we ever launched and people loved it.…

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