Lex Fridman: preference

Transcript context

…Thank you for listening to this conversation with Jennifer Burns. And now, let me try to reflect on and articulate some things I’ve been thinking about. If you’d like to submit questions or topics that I can comment on in this way here at the end of episodes, go to lexfridman.com/ama, or contact me for whatever other reason at lexfridman. com/contact. Please allow me to say a few words about my interview with the president of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelensky, now that a few days have passed and I’ve had the chance to think about the conversation itself, the response, future upcoming conversations, and what it all means for the war in Ukraine, for global geopolitics, and for us humans in general. I’ve gotten a lot of heartfelt positive words from all sides, including, at least so far, literally everybody who knows me personally inside Ukraine, which includes a lot of soldiers and many high profile figures, some who are supportive of the president, and some who are critical of him. Literally, all private communication has been positive and supportive. This is usually not the case with me. Friends usually will write to me to criticize and to disagree. That’s the whole point of friendship, to argue and have fun doing it. There was none of that here, at least so far. So thank you for your support and kind words. It means the world. The most common message was, please keep pushing for peace. I will. But online on the interwebs, I saw a lot of attacks sometimes from swarms of online accounts which, of course, makes me suspicious about the origin of those attacks. One of my friends in Ukraine, who by the way thinks the attacks are all propped out by Ukrainian bot farms, said, “There’s no need to say anything extra. Let the interview stand on its own. Just keep focused on the mission of pushing for peace.” Basically, he’s a Ukrainian version of my other friend, Joe Rogan, who to this day says, “Don’t read the comments.” This is generally good advice and I try to follow it. But I’m also human being. I wear my heart on my sleeve. And this interview, this war for me is deeply personal. And the level of vitriol, misrepresentation, and lies about the conversation and about me personally was particularly intense and disingenuous. So I thought I would use this opportunity to say a few words, just speak a bit more about how I approach this conversation with President Zelensky and conversations in general. This interview is something I poured my heart and soul into preparing a lot. I’ve described parts of the preparation process I follow in the outro to the Zelensky conversation. But in general, let me say that I’ve read a lot, listened to a lot, and had a lot of private conversations with people on the ground. I have many flaws. But being unprepared for this conversation is not one of them. let me say that I’ve read a lot, listened to a lot, and had a lot of private conversations with people on the ground. I have many flaws. But being unprepared for this conversation is not one of them. Two low effort attacks got to me a bit, if I’m being honest though I am learning to take it all in stride. First attack is that I’m unprepared, uninformed or naive. I don’t give a damn about the trolls, but I want people who listen to me, who support me, who care about my words, to know that this is not the case. It never will be the case for future conversations, especially ones of this importance. I work extremely hard to prepare. Second low effort attack that got to me a bit is that I’m a shill for Zelensky or a shill for Putin. Both accusations were hurled readily and freely by the online mob of all persuasions by the left and the right in the United States and Europe by the pro and the anti-Zelensky people in Ukraine or of Ukrainian origins and by the pro and anti-Putin people in Russia or of Russian origins. As I’ve said over and over, this is not the case. I will never be the case. I’m a shill for no one. More than that, I just simply refuse to be caught in any one single echo chamber. It’s an ongoing battle of course, because social media algorithms and the various dogmatic groups and tribes out there want to pull you in to their warm embrace of belonging. And humans want to belong. But the cost of the path I have chosen is that I will never belong to any one group. In the end, like many of us must, I walk alone. And I try to do my best to do what is right to my independent heart and mind, not what is popular with any one group. My goals for this conversation were twofold. First, give a large platform to President Zelensky to explain his perspective on the war and to do so in a way that brings out the best in who he is as a leader and human being. Second goal was to push for peace, and to give him every opportunity possible to signal that he’s ready to make peace, and to provide his vision for what that might look like. And just to be clear, by peace, I mean long-lasting peace that minimizes suffering of people in the region and maximizes the flourishing of humanity in the coming decades. The war in Ukraine has led to over one million casualties and growing every single day. For some people torn apart by loss, tormented, and forced into a state of anger and hate, peace is a dirty word. To them, nothing less than justice must be accepted. I hear this pain. I’ve seen the bodies and the suffering. It’s true. Peace will not bring back your loved ones. But it’ll prevent further slaughter of more people, each of whom are someone else’s loved ones. So again, the second goal of this conversation was to push for this kind of peace. So how did I approach it? Every conversation is its own puzzle. So let me try to explain my approach for this one. As I’ve said, I read and listened to a lot of material since February 24th, 2022. There would be many weeks over the past three years where I would spend every day over eight hours a day of focused reading and research. d and listened to a lot of material since February 24th, 2022. There would be many weeks over the past three years where I would spend every day over eight hours a day of focused reading and research. There were several rabbit holes that I consistently returned to and researched. But the most important line of inquiry was always peace talks, not just in this war, but in other wars in modern history. For this specific war, as part of the background prep, I would take notes on every single perspective I could find on every single major diplomatic meeting and negotiation that happened in Ukraine-Russia relations since 1991. There is a lot of material to go through. And there are a lot of perspectives, even on the very 2019 meeting that President Zelensky spoke about in this podcast. Just as a small but important example, Andrii Bogdan was interviewed twice by Dmytro Gordon and gave a deep inside look of the administration of President Zelensky, including that very 2019 meeting. The two interviews are seven and a half hours by the way. And from my interviewer perspective, are a masterclass of interviewing. Andrii Bogdan worked directly with President Zelensky as the head of the Office of the President of Ukraine. He was there for the 2019 face-to-face meeting between Volodymyr Zelensky and Vladimir Putin at the Paris Summit, along with French President Emmanuel Macron and German Chancellor Angela Merkel. This was part of the Normandy Format Peace Talks. In those two interviews, Andrii Bogdan gave a very different perspective on that 2019 meeting than did President Zelensky to me in our conversation, the perspective being that the failure to negotiate a ceasefire and peace was not a simple one-sided story. I don’t think this is the right time for me to dive into that data point and be critical. I’m not interested in being critical for the sake of criticism. I am interested once again in productive conversations, critical or otherwise, that push towards peace, the kind I described earlier. This is merely an example of a data point I was collecting in my brain. There are many, many others. But all of it taken together made it clear to me, and I still believe this, that it is indeed very difficult but possible to negotiate long-lasting peace with Vladimir Putin. It’s certainly true that Ukraine is best positioned to negotiate from a place of strength. After the invasion of February 24th, 2022, I believe there were three chances where peace was most achievable. First chance was March and April of 2022 with a successful defense of the north. Second chance was the fall of 2022 with the successful counteroffensive in Kherson and Kharkiv. The third chance is now. As he has stated multiple times publicly, Donald Trump is very interested in making peace. It is likely that the US financial support for this war will continue to dwindle. So the leverage and the timing for peace negotiation is now. There is unlikely to be another chance like this for a long time.…

Stored transcript either side of the excerpt. The highlighted words are the published quote; the surrounding text is unedited source, never generated.